Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Teetering on the edge

974 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/01/2019 12:11

12 weeks to go.

There is rising confidence in the Extreme Brexiteer camp as well as open comments about how they can deliberately force through No Deal. Remember No Deal is the default. Every political crisis that takes up time makes no deal more likely and the ERG can just be obstructive to facilitate a political crisis. Parliament DO NOT have the ultimate power to stop Brexit - unless the government effectively allow an option to do so. And there is no sign May will let this ever happen. No Deal takes us back to pre-industrial revolution Britain in many social and economic ways. Which will please Jacob Rees-Mogg no end.

No Deal prep is now costing us a fortune - and is no where near sufficient in its scope. Won't someone think of all the extra that could have been put into the NHS.

Parliament returns next week. I hope you have enjoyed your Christmas break. What will happen in 2019 no one knows; the only certainity is turbulance and lurching from crisis to crisis. If we don't get hit by Brexit, maybe it will be the US shutdown crisis or the collaspe in the Chinese economy that will get us. Economists are nervous and thats generally not a good thing for the average person on the street.

Time to get in the euros, stock up on the tomatoes, invest in books and otherwise batten down the hatches financially whilst we await the coming storm in the hope that the forecasters are as good as Michael Fish in 1987.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
1tisILeClerc · 05/01/2019 12:17

Thanks RTB, again!
{Won't someone think of all the extra that could have been put into the NHS. }
The gov could have emphasised how brilliant Brexiting would be if they had thrown REAL extra money into the NHS a couple of years back.
That would have shown that the UK gov was in the driving seat, unlike Noddy.

Buteo · 05/01/2019 12:20

Thanks RTB

Except Michael Fish underestimated the oncoming storm Sad

Member745520 · 05/01/2019 12:25

pmk

RedToothBrush · 05/01/2019 12:27

My point was the Michael Fish said there wasn't going to be a storm. So he was completely wrong.

Maybe not the best example upon reflection.

OP posts:
Hasenstein · 05/01/2019 12:30

PMK, with thanks again, Red.

After all that's happened over the past few years and everything which could have been done to mitigate the situation, it's dreadful to think that we're now "teetering on the edge". Gullible as I am, I never thought it would get this far and I'm still hoping almost against hope that something will turn up to stop the impending catastrophe.

I can't understand how blasé people still are about this, still blithely insisting it won't be so bad, we've survived before, the EU will somehow back down to our demands. It's just not going to happen and we're hurtling towards the default of No Deal. People keep saying there's no majority in Parliament for No Deal, but that doesn't appear to make any difference, we're still helplessly heading for the cliff edge whether we like it or not.

I'm not sure how much more of this I can take. I was never particularly interested in politics, now I'm being consumed by it and it's doing my mental wellbeing no good at all. It's always a depressing time when the Christmas decorations come down; this year it feels as though we're packing them away for a very long time.

bellinisurge · 05/01/2019 12:35

Thank you,@RedToothBrush .

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2019 12:37

Thanks, red 💐

imo, No Deal is not survivable as a modern industrialised country

We would be plundered like Russia in the 1990s - which of course is what the disaster capitalists plan:
a repeat of those windfall looting years

Any anger over a revoke would be totally dwarfed by the furious reaction of returning to a subsistence society even in the short term
especially the young who never voted for this Brexshit.

It would exacerbate the existing demographics crisis, as the mobile young, fit, skilled move abroad
and Britain becomes a country of the old and those without the resources to escape

Goodbye UK, been mostly nice knowing you Sad

MissMalice · 05/01/2019 12:37

Place mat king. Have thoroughly enjoyed a rather quiet Christmas. Think January will be anything but..!

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 05/01/2019 12:38

Thanks rtb

RedToothBrush · 05/01/2019 12:39

BigChoc, pensioners would be wise not to be reliant on the state in that situation, when the demographic tilt goes against their majority...

It won't be pretty.

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 05/01/2019 12:42

It is 2019
In 14 weeks it will be 1970

colouringinpro · 05/01/2019 12:44

Pmk.

Can I just clarify, are you guys investing in euros rather than £ and if so how do you go about doing that?

I am so nervous about this, but it feels like most people I know are oblivious/falling for the project fear line. Even a close friend, well educated, good social conscience asked why we had to trade in food, why we couldn't just buy British, that's what she does most of the time anyway Confused

RedToothBrush · 05/01/2019 12:47

Not done yet. But planning to make DH open EU Bank account.

OP posts:
lonelyplanetmum · 05/01/2019 12:48

Thank you as ever RTBThanks.

I think we are still one thread away from the vote, or it's further postponement.

lonelyplanetmum · 05/01/2019 12:48

Thank you as ever RTBThanks.

I think we are still one thread away from the vote, or it's further postponement.

Ta1kinPeace · 05/01/2019 12:50

colouring
My DD is on the continent with Erasmus. If it comes to it I plan to "lend" her a lot of money.
But TBH I'm more worried about getting to see her at Easter

Somerville · 05/01/2019 12:51

TBH I don't know what to think at this point. I know so many clever English people - friends, colleagues, even some in-laws - who, whilst angry about the waste of money and shitty government priorties, are absolutely adament that May doesn't want no deal, and that even if she succumbs to it, parliament will block no deal. I've spent several weeks at social events saying 'but no deal is DEFAULT, parliament don't necessarily have a way to stop it,' and everyone says 'parliament will find a way. Enough remain-tories will vote for no-confidence in government to stop it, if they can't come up with anything else.' This is from acadmics, city types, medics, even local government. They think I'm slightly nuts to have stocked up our pantry.
Please tell me you're all hearing this too? Does it make you relieved or frustrated?
I have to say, my friends and relatives back in north of Ireland aren't nearly so relaxed about no-deal potential. There is sort of resigned anger from some, and a gleeful anticipation of United Ireland edging ever closer from others.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2019 12:51

red Looking at other countries, if the national finances go tits up, then there are no sacred cows
if there is genuinely "No more money" as in the infamously leaked Darling note, then there will be cuts

Since the govt will be desperately trying to stop business & the wealthy abandoning ship and fleeing abroad, they would avoid raising taxes on them

  • much easier to cut benefits BUT with higher prices and job cuts, more people will be sharing a smaller public cake

I expect the govt would prioritise the military and the police, at all costs, to protect govt offices and the City

Especially as they seem in such a militaristic mood - WIlliamson currently planning to open new military bases on the other side of the world, ffs

I vaguely remember when Britain had to call in the IMF in the 1970s:
the IMF demanded serious cuts in public spending and the deficit

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/sterling-devalued-imf-loan.htm

Somerville · 05/01/2019 12:55

And no-one I've talked to directly is saying that no-deal wouldn't be a huge disaster. Almost the opposite - that it is clear to them professionally that it would be such an abject disaster that they don't think it could possibly happen.
Some of them are historians, for God's sake!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2019 12:58

My money and pension have been in Euros for many years and I am keeping them like that, since i now live in Germany
BUT
if we do revoke after all, I'd expect Sterling to shoot up again
Even if the WA is signed, it should rise a fair bit

So, unless you plan to live, or at least travel a lot in the EEA, I wouldn't personally change a lot of savings to Euros
unless you are really clear about the risks

Buteo · 05/01/2019 13:00

It is 2019
In 14 weeks it will be 1970

Yeah - don’t bother putting your clocks forward at the end of March, just put them back 50 years.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2019 13:00

That's pensionS - I have 4 German ones and just the UK state pension
plus a lot in German brokerage & savings accounts

I've spread risk as much as poss, but I'm still worried about the effects ot taking the #5/6#/#7 economy off line

WrithingHomeForChristmas · 05/01/2019 13:20

PMK

HesterThrale · 05/01/2019 13:32

Place mat king.

Interesting times we are living in.

Good Facebook post from Robert Peston.

The prime minister does have a strategy to prevent what she sees as the chaos of a no-deal Brexit.
The flaw in it is that the strategy probably has a shelf life of just over one week.
Because her strategy is to persuade MPs to back her version of leaving the EU in a vote on 15 or 16 January, and in the words of one of her senior ministers:
“I will be shot for telling you this but we are going to lose that vote”.
So what then?
Well, amazingly, no one around her - not her ministers, not her officials - seem to know.
Why not?
“She won’t tell us” says a minister.
“We go to see her. We give her our ideas about what to do next. She listens politely. She even asks questions. But none of us have a clue whether she agrees, whether she is persuaded. She gives us no hints. It is quite remarkable”.
Of course her officials - her chief of staff Gavin Barwell, the cabinet secretary, Mark Sedwill - are working on contingency plans for what should happen if (when) the vote is lost. That is their duty.
But they too have no idea whether the PM will actually do what they suggest, as and when the time comes. In the words of one of their colleagues “they are in a silo, and the PM is outside the silo in one of her own”.
So with less than 12 weeks till Brexit day on 29 March, it is all a bit odd and unsettling.
In respect of what in practice happens next, much will hinge on the margin of her defeat in that vote.
When the vote was originally supposed to be held before Christmas, it was originally thought the PM would lose by 200 votes or more.
But since then the EU has reiterated that the widely hated Northern Ireland backstop - the customs and regulatory arrangement designed to keep open the border on the island of Ireland but which is seen by critics as driving a wedge between Northern Ireland and Great Britain - would be a temporary fix.
And the PM is hopeful such assurances from EU leaders that the backstop could not be forever will be repeated in coming days. It may be reinforced by an amendment to the Commons “meaningful vote” motion on her deal, which would mandate a future UK government to invoke the so called Vienna Convention to get out of the backstop if the EU failed to use “best endeavours” to replace the backstop in subsequent negotiations with a permanent and acceptable alternative.
But these initiatives would not provide total legal certainty that the UK could escape the backstop - which is what Northern Ireland’s DUP MPs, who support the PM in office, and many Tory Brexiter MPs say is the essence of what they need to cease their opposition to her Brexit plan.
And they do not address the many other concerns of her MPs - Brexiters and Remainers - with what she negotiated, such as agreeing a divorce payment of £39bn while allowing what they see as desperate uncertainty to persist about the UK’s future trading and security arrangements with the EU.
That is why the entire cabinet, with the possible exception of the PM herself, expects the meaningful vote to be lost.
But let’s say - which some think plausible - Theresa May lost not by 200 but “only” by 80.
In normal parliamentary circumstances that would still be game over.
The world is not normal.
Almost inevitably Jeremy Corbyn would then finally get round to tabling the motion of no confidence in the government under the Fixed Term Parliament Act that he has been threatening.
And he too is expected by most of his colleagues to lose that vote.
At which point there would be stalemate - and the very heightened risk of the UK leaving the EU without a deal.
For most MPs (not all) no-deal is synonymous with an economic shock on a par with the Great Recession of 2008, with the risk of shortages of parts for manufacturers, a slump in investment, diminution in medicine stocks to life-threateningly low levels and civil disorder.
So at that juncture the PM would face the decision of her life: press ahead with another vote on her plan, by begging 40 or so Labour MPs to put Brexit and nation before party and vote for her (possibly tweaked again) plan to leave the EU; or do what many in her cabinet (Lidington, Rudd, Hammond, Clark, Gauke, inter alia) are already urging her to do, which is to hold a series of “consultative votes” of MPs, to establish what kind of Brexit or even no-Brexit Parliament might actually support.
It is a choice for her between pressing on with trying to win support for her Brexit proposal, at the risk that by 29 March the game is well and truly up and the default position of an economically expensive no deal becomes the real position, or pivoting to pursue the revealed will of parliamentarians - which would not be a no-deal Brexit, could be a version of her Brexit plan reworked to make it closer to the plan Corbyn says he would support, but is more likely to be a referendum.
Here is the impasse. She views a no-deal Brexit and another referendum as equally toxic. And her lifelong modus operandi is to be immovable once she has a settled position (which in this case is that her Brexit plan is superior to anything else). However her cabinet is split between those who see a referendum as more poisonous than no-deal (Fox, Mordaunt, Leadsom and co) and those who take precisely the opposite view (Rudd, Clark, Hammond and co).
There is paralysis at the top of government on the most important question of our age at a time when time is desperately, horrifyingly short.
These are conditions in which an organised opposition with a clear sense of direction could have a decisive, momentous influence on this country’s destiny (the lesson of Attlee in 1940 is instructive).
But Labour too is desperately divided - and Jeremy Corbyn’s position on Brexit seems as distant from that of his party’s members as May’s is from Tory members.
Britain needs leaders and leadership, now more than ever. Who, if anyone, can and will seize the moment?

MarmotMorning · 05/01/2019 13:58

What do people think about electrity supplies in no deal Brexit?
Thinking about the pros and cons of a fully stocked freezer. Also about charging phones etc - is it overkill to get a solar charger?

Swipe left for the next trending thread