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Brexit
Original poster

Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

404 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 16:10

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:12

Of course you entitled to your opinion, @MeganBacon . But making such a huge national decision on a"feeling " is not very sensible.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:12

Opinions need to be based on something though megan
Yes they do, but they don't necessarily have to be based on fact. They can be based on an expectation of how a situation will evolve, for example.

lljkk · 07/10/2018 18:14

Reasons to Stay:

Excellent access to the largest trading bloc on the planet.
Right to live, work & own property in 27 other EU countries.
Reciprocal pension arrangements if you work one of those other countries.
Low roaming charges, locally priced health insurance when travelling in EU.
Free movement of capital between UK & 27 other countries.
High safety standards for food, toys and other goods.
Being part of big leverage power on world economy.
Chance to retire in the sun.
EU is excellent source of scientific grants, arts, culture & economic development funding.
Leaving is an almighty entirely avoidable hassle.

Reasons to Relinquish all that:

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 18:14

They can be based on an expectation of how a situation will evolve, for example.

Which, in turn has to be based on something tangible, otherwise it's pure speculation.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:14

@MeganBacon , please explain how this situation of us joining the Eurozone will evolve?

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 18:14

A homeland?

Interesting choice of username.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:15

Of course you entitled to your opinion, @MeganBacon . But making such a huge national decision on a"feeling " is not very sensible.

I agree with that.
I based my Remain vote on a feeling that it would be difficult to negotiate new trade deals, again not something I knew to be a fact (still don't), but in the absence of facts, people still had to make a decision one way or the other.
I'm only trying to present some balance here - clearly 52% of the voters were not all stupid.

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 18:16

They can be based on an expectation of how a situation will evolve, for example

And those 'expectations' should be based on available facts, surely? Otherwise we're back to unicorns and sunlit uplands again.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:18

@MeganBacon - but all Leave voters can offer is "feelings" and "impressions ". I have a feeling that things are going to get economically very bad if we crash out and I hope I am wrong.
I have a feeling that people think that whatever deal TM brings back to Parliament, we can tweak and the EU will accept it.
Why are my feelings less valid if it is all about feelings?

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 18:19

Good to see MNHQ are quick off the mark deleting the Nazi trolls on a Sunday evening!

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:20

@MeganBacon , please explain how this situation of us joining the Eurozone will evolve?

That would take far too long and I can't be bothered. And obviously, I can't be sure. Which is why it didn't sway my vote towards the Leave side.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 18:21

That would take far too long and I can't be bothered

So you have no fucking idea then! 😆

SylvanianFrenemies · 07/10/2018 18:22

I can really come up with any detailed "leave" arguments. They seem to be ideologically-driven. I don't share that ideology.

Remain: prevent long-term financial destabilisation, retain protection of workers' rights (maternity etc), avoid the Ireland/Northern Ireland border disaster.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:25

@MeganBacon - your posts are a valiant effort.
But it is hard now to think "aw diddums" about people having hurt feelings so that's why they voted Leave.
The argument that "anything so hard to leave must, by definition, be a thing you should leave" is not well made. This isn't a marriage or a job. But people are treating it like that.

Sashkin · 07/10/2018 18:27

Voted remain.

But a couple of things that may improve:
We can forge stronger ties with Commonwealth countries. So increased skilled migration from countries such as India/Pakistan, and hopefully easier access to work visas for UK citizens to move to Canada/Aus/NZ (which given our dire language skills would probably be taken up more than FOM within the EU).

Scraping the barrel a bit there, but definitely possible outcomes. Somebody has to do the work once we throw the EU citizens out, and UK employers don’t want to spend any money training existing citizens up.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:29

*They can be based on an expectation of how a situation will evolve, for example.

Which, in turn has to be based on something tangible, otherwise it's pure speculation.*

Yes. But who on earth thought that a referendum result would be based on facts? Referenda are (pretty much) only called when it is a cross party issue and facts cannot be presented to prove either way which is the right course of action. So feelings or opinion or speculation do drive the result.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:32

@Sashkin - it takes two to tango. It will take years to negotiate anything positive and we are not in a financially strong position if our economy tanks.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:34

@MeganBacon - they are so much better at doing referenda in Ireland where it is part of the constitutional process. We did this one like an XFactor vote.

YeTalkShiteHen · 07/10/2018 18:35

Ignorance drove a lot of it. Or claims that facts weren’t available.

Anyone who says they didn’t know about the Irish/Northen Irish border issue, that they were never told is a fucking idiot.

It’s history, very recent history. Well documented and extremely painful for many.

CherryPavlova · 07/10/2018 18:36

No, not a single reason to leave. No positive outcomes at all as far as I can see.

Ta1kinpeace · 07/10/2018 18:36

Megan
How will you know whether Brexit has achieved what you wanted?
What will be the things you look out for?

Sashkin
There has never been any prevention against allowing lots of immigrants in from India.
But Theresa May set the immigration rules so ludicrously that non EU cannot come.
When she went to India, Modi offered a free trade deal
in exchange for 100,000 visas
she came home with no deal;

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:36

*That would take far too long and I can't be bothered

So you have no fucking idea then! *

No actually I do, but I have a sausage casserole in the oven and I have been on these boards long enough to know that minds are closed anyway.

YeTalkShiteHen · 07/10/2018 18:38

No actually I do, but I have a sausage casserole in the oven and I have been on these boards long enough to know that minds are closed anyway.

All the comments you’ve written took time and effort, but still no reason?

Jesus, at least be honest.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 18:39

No actually I do, but I have a sausage casserole in the oven and I have been on these boards long enough to know that minds are closed anyway.

Forgive me if I don't believe you.

Enjoy your casserole.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:39

How will you know whether Brexit has achieved what you wanted?
What will be the things you look out for?

It won't achieve what I voted for because I voted to Remain.