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Brexit
Original poster

Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

404 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 16:10

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

OP posts:
MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 20:44

Why would Germany want to payroll Italy/Greece etc? That's why.
It's not imminent, but there are vulnerabilities as long as there is no political union.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 20:45

@Bellini, yes they would have to have one government I suppose. I don't see it happening either any time soon. So the argument is that the Euro remains vulnerable to the next crisis.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 20:51

10 I'm no more of a bully than the EU.

The fact is it suits your narrative to call us both such.

It's not 'bullying' to repeat, time and time again, what the rules are.

It's not 'bullying' to point out there needs to be more substance to the vagueries that Leavers trot out.

It is 'playing the victim' to try and say otherwise.

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 21:02

Am not sure why Meghan is being picked on here. No need for sarcastic comments .

It is understandable that Brexit discussions can raise emotions but swearing and angry comments and disrespectful comments only hinder balanced discussion and cause intimidation. I'm hoping here that this thread can offer a safe place free from intimidation where everyone can express openly their views free from attack and we can learn from different views.

OP posts:
Ta1kinpeace · 07/10/2018 21:05

I would learn from different views if the Brexiters would just explain what it is they actually want - in tangible terms that can be checked after the event

1tisILeClerc · 07/10/2018 21:08

Mutually agreeing things and merging are quite different. There is of course 'blending' at the borders where people will speak both languages and the lifestyles also merge to a fair degree.
One of the aims of the EU is to raise the standard of living for all, and given the vast differences in life experience of 'peasant farmers' in Greece and the bosses of the giant corporations like Siemens, there is a bit of work to do. It is made more difficult as it is up to the SOVEREIGN nations to actually implement the aspirations of the EU.
Something that the UK government have made a complete hash of.

Monday55 · 07/10/2018 21:10

People should stop fighting on who did what and come up with a plan on how we can get stronger as an economy as there's no point of crying over spilt milk.

Switzerland have had 3 referendums in the past and they declined to join the EU and they're doing quiet well as well as Norway. Maybe we should look to see how've they done it and take baby steps into recovery.

Leaving the EU has already impacted my business negatively but I'm done crying about it.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 21:14

@Monday55
Agree.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 21:14

OP, we are not a bunch of school children who need you to arbitrate.

Do you want to contribute to the discussion or did you just start the thread to feel superior by playing referee?

What do you think the relative merits of Leave and Remain are?

Peregrina · 07/10/2018 21:15

We can forge stronger ties with Commonwealth countries.

Why exactly is this particularly desirable?
As has already been mentioned, May could have had a deal with India but won't give them the visas they requested. If she had, I question whether it is beneficial to the countries concerned - do they not need to keep their skilled and educated classes?

It has to be acknowledged that a significant part of the Brexit vote was an anti-immigrant one, and those Brexiters are no more likely to accept more black and brown faces than they did white European ones.

As for FoM to Australia, Canada and New Zealand it's already something of a one way street with Health Care professionals choosing to work in those countries for better working conditions.

Leavers usual come up with 'Make our own laws'. Finally the other day, someone managed to mention that we could set our own VAT rates. Fair enough, except that since it was an EEC/EU tax, we could scrap it altogether, which they didn't mention (I did) but the Govt will need to put something else in its place.

jasjas1973 · 07/10/2018 21:17

Well, we dont have any say in what happens next, TM is completely and utterly ignoring 16m voters who want Remain, or 52% of the electorate if you believe the polls.

Switzerland and Norway, evolved their trading positions whilst the EEC grew, also Norway is rich in natural resources.

My plan going fwd would be to join EFTA, we ve left the EU, so that deals with half the population but it is close enough to the EU to appease the remain half...... see how easy it is to unite the country lol!

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 21:18

Would these Commonwealth countries be the ones with nothing like the purchasing power of our nearest neighbours?

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 21:19

'Baby steps to recovery'?

Here's an idea. How about we call a halt to the whole thing and then we won't need to 'recover' from it at all?

1tisILeClerc · 07/10/2018 21:21

Norway and Switzerland have quite different approaches to life both as individuals and as countries compared to the UK and do not have vast numbers of cities that were built up during early industrialisation which have been all but abandoned by the 'new shiny stuff' concentrated in the south East and London.
Their economies have morphed gradually as opposed to shutting down of coalfields and other industry.

Peregrina · 07/10/2018 21:23

Switzerland have had 3 referendums in the past and they declined to join the EU and they're doing quiet well as well as Norway. Maybe we should look to see how've they done it and take baby steps into recovery.

Switzerland and Norway are both in Schengen and both have FoM. Switzerland is in EFTA - as the UK used to be once. Norway is in the EEA. Both of these would probably be tolerably acceptable compromises to many Remainers. EEA + customs union would preserve the GFA. May has ruled them out.

10degreestostarboard · 07/10/2018 21:23

Bearbehind - all very tedious of you but indicative nonetheless - perhaps if some humility had been displayed by the remainers in 2016 you might have won...

It seems humility is still lacking.

Even if you got you cherished ‘people’s vote’ I’m not convinced that leave wouldn’t win again. You see, if there’s one thing the majority of patriotic brits hate, it’s being given the run around. And the eu are certainly doing that.

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 21:26

What is your definition of a 'patriotic Brit', 10?

You didn't explain on the other thread, it would be lovely if you did now.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 21:27

@10degreestostarboard - I've said on here many times, I would be delighted to come on here and admit I was wrong. I'd love to eat some Humble Pie. If me being mistaken is the worst thing that happens, that's absolutely fine by me.
Will you promise to do the same?

Peregrina · 07/10/2018 21:28

10degrees - what are you expecting to see when Brexit happens?
If you want more money for the NHS, I don't think you will be alone, but I can't see the current Government providing that.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 21:28

You didn't explain on the other thread, it would be lovely if you did now.

There's a lot 10 doesn't explain on other threads but he/she is hoping we don't notice.

1tisILeClerc · 07/10/2018 21:29

Australia and New Zealand were shut out a bit when the UK joined the common market and after that shock they turned and now face to their nearer neighbours in the East, which is entirely logical.
Trade with them is at a pretty low level and they have ramped up to trade elsewhere.
Australia has stopped being a land of milk and honey and New Zealand have stopped overseas buyers purchasing property.
While it might be a nice idea to do more trade with some of the commonwealth countries but they haven't got any money, certainly nothing like the market on the UK's doorstep.

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 21:30

Well, we live in hope, bear. After all, it's not a difficult question, surely?

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 21:32

OP, we are not a bunch of school children who need you to arbitrate

Actually, having an arbitrator on these heated threads is not such a bad idea. It may help get a balance of views.

Do you want to contribute to the discussion or did you just start the thread to feel superior by playing referee?

I'm doing this thing called listening and learning

What do you think the relative merits of Leave and Remain are?

When I'm ready, I'll answer this

OP posts:
Ta1kinpeace · 07/10/2018 21:34

The EU is not giving the UK the run around.

The UK flounced from the table, marched out the door slamming it shut behind them
and are now shouting back through the letter box to be given the key to their bicycle lock.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 21:40

When I'm ready, I'll answer this

Well you and the government have had 2 and a half years but, take your time 🤔