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Brexit
Original poster

Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

404 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 16:10

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 16:16

Reasons to Remain.

We have no idea how to make Leaving work.

End of.

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 16:23

If you were advising TM Bearbehind, what would you say to her?

OP posts:
Kewqueue · 07/10/2018 16:25

I can't think of one good reason to leave.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 16:27

We need to stay in SM / CU because she hasn't got any other solutions.

TM is the reason we are in this mess though.

Her 'red lines' have caused the problems.

She had an opportunity, when DC did a runner, to say 'we'll take stock and see how best to proceed'

Instead she rode roughshod over everything on some personal Crusade to be the next Iron Lady.

AlexaShutUp · 07/10/2018 16:28

If I were advising TM, and remaining in the EU wasn't an option, I'd be pushing for a Brexit in name only.

There are lots of reasons for wanting to remain but the main one is that everything will be fucked if we leave - jobs, the economy, Northern Ireland etc. It simply isn't worth it!

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 16:30

Oh, and OP, don't expect any tangible reasons for Leaving.

At best you'll get some very well worn soundbites.

Somehow Leavers have been conditioned to stop at those and literally don't ever consider the fact they can't think of any practical examples of said comments.

wurzelburga · 07/10/2018 16:33

No exit deal will be better than our current arrangement as a leading EU member state.

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 07/10/2018 16:38

How about we start with positive reasons for remaining in the EU?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 16:42

As wurzel said; we will never get a better deal than the one we have.

We could have restricted FOM more tightly whilst within the EU.

We never lost soverignity.

We had a veto over anything in the EU we didn't agree with.

We could have made trade deals outside the EU.

Basically there's no valid reason to Leave therefore the conclusion has to be it's better to Remain.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 16:45

Positive reasons to Remain: THE GFA, Freedom of Movement for us too, loads of muscle in trade deals as a big bloc, check on tyrannical instincts, a chance to influence near neighbours even if they don't always listen, economic and political stability, THE GFA.

Ta1kinpeace · 07/10/2018 16:53

Reasons to stay in the EU:

Efficient cross border manufacturing
Efficient cross border agriculture
Efficient cross border services
Freedom of movement to experience other cultures
Freedom of movement to bring in key workers as and when they are needed
Non political allocation of money to poor regions across the continent

Reasons to leave the EU

I have been asking for years for three things that leave voters think will be better for them after Brexit
still waiting for an answer

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/10/2018 16:54

There is no good reason to leave. Genuinely.

The EU may not be perfect (what huge multi-country organisation ever could be perfect?) but, as pp have said, we will never ever ever get a better deal than the one we already have.

The things that Leavers cite as reasons for leaving are either a) things we could have done anyway (cos, you know, we have sovereignty) and chose not to do or b) unicorn-based fantasies or c) racist drivel

YeTalkShiteHen · 07/10/2018 16:58

Reasons to remain:

GFA meaning the people of NI still have peace.

Because it’s better than what’s to come.

Because it’s the logical, sensible and best option.

Because the EU acts as a buffer between the poorest most vulnerable in our society and the Tories/DUP.

Reasons to leave:

Not a fucking clue.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 17:32

Reasons to stay:
It is very difficult to leave
It will probably take a long time to negotiate new trade deals and for the economy to properly readjust
There will probably be slower growth in the short to medium term which will impact the vulnerable in society the most

Reasons to leave:
The EU construct is unsustainable without ever closer political and fiscal union
My strong dislike of the EU Commission - our voice was always tiny and that would not have improved.

Reasons neither for nor against:
European peace - I think NATO has kept peace, not the EU, and it's unclear whether UK being out of EU is a good or bad thing for NATO - but this would have been a very important factor in my decision if only I had a clue how it would play out.

1tisILeClerc · 07/10/2018 17:39

I have a feeling, but can't be bothered to do sufficient digging, that there are some aspects of the EU membership that we will leave, have an element that could be improved, as it is far from perfect. The issue of refugees and some elements of FoM for example. This is completely overshadowed by all the disadvantages of leaving.
Saying this it would of course have been far better to have stayed in the EU and actually taken our coat off and looked like we were going to engage fully, rather than having one foot in the exit door.
By definition, ANY deal with the EU MUST be at least a little worse than being a member.
Had this exercise been conducted properly, say 10 or 15 years back when the world was rather more stable (Pre Trump, 9/11, Putin and ISIS) and with a plan for the NI/Ireland border it could have worked.
It would have taken a LOT of political will to make the necessary investment in jobs and manufacturing throughout the UK so that it would be possible to 'pull together'. The acceptance that the UK is not a 'major player' any more needed to be drummed into a lot of heads.
The UK CAN and does do a lot of good things and has/had a good reputation for science and innovation but it has been squandered to the point where it will now be near impossible to get back.
The biggest 'killer' ultimately is the ridiculous messing about for the last 2 1/2 years, where the UK gov has demonstrated to the world that it cannot be trusted. Sadly letting down the industries that we were good at.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 17:42

The EU construct is unsustainable without ever closer political and fiscal union

So how do you explain the fact we weren't part of the Eurozone?

My strong dislike of the EU Commission - our voice was always tiny and that would not have improved.

We had one of the 3 biggest voices in the EU, many opt outs and at worst an equal veto.

It's this kind of shite that winds people up. And you claim to be a Remainer.

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:01

So how do you explain the fact we weren't part of the Eurozone?

Firstly, I think that the pressure to become part of the EURO would, over time, have become greater. And secondly, when it implodes, it would be better for us to have removed ourselves as far as possible.

I've answered this question assuming that what you actually meant to ask was "why does this matter if we are not part of the Eurozone"?
I know you get so upset when anyone puts some balance on the board Bear, but OP has requested "constructive, respectful" debate and views from both sides. Please try to accept that not everyone is an extreme leaver, some of us were moderate or even ambivalent leavers and our views are also valid.

My strong dislike of the EU Commission - our voice was always tiny and that would not have improved.

We had one of the 3 biggest voices in the EU, many opt outs and at worst an equal veto.

I say that having worked cooperated with the EU for many years in various jobs based in various European countries.

bellinisurge · 07/10/2018 18:04

What is your evidence that we would be "forced" to join the Eurozone?

Ta1kinpeace · 07/10/2018 18:05

Megan
What three things in your day to day life will be better after Brexit?

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 18:05

I'm happy to have a constructive debate megan but you're not providing that.

What does your last comment even mean?

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:06

What is your evidence that we would be "forced" to join the Eurozone?

Did I say I had evidence? This is obviously an opinion. Are we not allowed opinions?

user83837478109 · 07/10/2018 18:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 18:09

Opinions need to be based on something though megan

MeganBacon · 07/10/2018 18:10

What three things in your day to day life will be better after Brexit?
You keep asking this and you are surprised when you don't get an answer and then you take this as support for the leave argument, and that's probably how you think but it's not (I'm guessing) how Leavers think. People who voted to leave don't care about pointing out things like the cost of goods, or the availability of gardeners, or whatever it is you want to hear. I assume they accept that practical things like that will be worse. Why don't you ask one to find out?

Bearbehind · 07/10/2018 18:12

The future is soverign independant nation states, trading, trusting and balancing power as we used to.

Why do you think that is the case?

What examples do you have of such nations?

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