Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

[MyNameIsArthur]

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

KenDodd - so what about the 44% of leave voters in NI do they not give a shit about NI either?

@AlexaShutUp - lots and lots of "shouting " about NI on here prior to the referendum. If anyone didn't know about it it was their own foolishness. It was kinda staring you in the face.

Well, yes and no. I know that there was "shouting" on here before the referendum, not least because I was one of the ones who was raising my voice. However, I don't think it was enough. Not everyone read the referendum threads on MN, and the Remain campaign simply didn't emphasise strongly enough how catastrophic Brexit would be with regard to the NI issue.

Even my mum said the other day that she hadn't given much thought to the NI issue prior to the referendum, because she simply didn't hear people talking about it. And my mum is of Irish descent and was out campaigning for Remain in our local town centre!

Well the DUP are known to want to wreck the GFA, so I suppose it could be said that they only give a shit about their version of NI.

I don't know why they voted Leave. I know all the DUP are very strong Leave supporters. Despite everything they say about not wanting a hard border across Ireland all their actions seem to say this is exactly what they want. They know leaving the CU & SM are completely incomparable with an invisible border and yet this is what they are clamouring for. I think some Nationalists also see Brexit as their best chance for a united Ireland.

I'm English and live in England, I really only know the basics about NI from what I read before the referendum, from talking to others this is miles more than most people. I think we have been really reckless with the peace with this vote, not just in NI/UK but in Europe as well. A view I've heard a lot is that civilised modern people and societies don't decent into war whereas I think worse case scenario with Brexit is civil war. And would you believe I'm a real natural optimist, my husband says my motto in life is "oh, it'll be alright" I don't feel like that about Brexit though. The best we can hope for is it won't be too bad.

@MyNameIsArthur
I have written to Theresa May though and am writing to my local MP

Many thanks, this is how we may turn things around. Other leavers, if you love your country please engage - we have limited time.

A view I've heard a lot is that civilised modern people and societies don't decent into war whereas I think worse case scenario with Brexit is civil war.

Which just shows, how very very short people's memories are. E.g. early 80s: Torvill and Dean win the winter Olympics Ice skating in Sarajevo in Yugoslavia with what seems like the whole country watching, so they know where the country is. 10 years on the country descended into civil war, and now no longer exists as a single entity.

Thirty years of strife in NI and people have forgotten? Or they never really knew, until the IRA started bombing London, and then Thatcher's Government started to do something.

Major and Blair with others, worked hard for the GFA and to see it casually threatened is criminal IMO.

I think the sad fact is most people in England don't give a shit about NI if they did they wouldn't have voted Leave

^
Sadly this is the truth. I have heard countless comments like ‘why are the paddies interfering’, ‘we own them so they just have to do what we say’,’what’s it got to do with them anyhow’, ‘why doesn’t Ireland just leave with us’.

"KenDodd - so what about the 44% of leave voters in NI do they not give a shit about NI either?"
Leavers don't give a shit about the 48% in the UK who voted Remain so why should I care that much that some people in NI voted Leave?

Bellini my question wasn’t asking if you give a shit abou NI leave voters but thanks for your view anyway. It was more a general post as to why did 44% of NI vote leave, to which a couple of people have replied.

Personally I am sick of this debate. GB trying to blame the EU for a pickle that was to some extent of their own making. The NHS has been in decline for the last 20 years due to underfunding and the amount we pay to the EU would not be enough to reverse this.
But most of all the UK has invested far too much money in private property pushing up the price of land to such an extent that it is almost impossible to build affordable housing in many areas. The EU did not cause this. If we had taken note of some of the things Our EU counterparts were doing we might not be in this mess today. Sorry to anyone who had a bad time with austerity .

@LOVELYDOVEY05
Brexit is too important to be sick of. Can't be ignored as it affect all our DC. Where do you stand on the debate after the last 2 years - has it changed your mind?

How would Leavers feel if we accepted a longer transition period and stayed in the customs union and single market whilst in the transition period ?
So basically stepped away from the cliff edge and did some planning without fucking too much stuff up too quickly

I think that would be a good idea frumpety as 2 years isn't really long enough to sort this out

Thank you to those for their kind wishes yesterday by the way

Arthur hope you have your hospital kit packed for the weekend, if you get bored or want a good old rant feel free to PM me

Bugger that grin was supposed to be a smile, going to blame the foreign gin for that one

All the very best Arthur, puts Brexit into perspective.

Thanks frumpety. That's kind of you. Thanks everyone. Don't, you'll be getting me all emotional. I'm doing great though. Am in remission so have no worries. Apart from Brexit! 😭

I have now emailed my local MP.

1. We’d get our money back
2. We could decide who comes into our country
3. We could make our own laws again
4. Our courts would have the final say over those laws
5. We wouldn’t have to accept decisions forced on us by other countries 6 )We wouldn’t have to listen to lots of European presidents (there are five)
6. We wouldn’t have to listen to, or fund, the European Commission (The European Commission is more than the EU's civil service. It also has the right to propose new laws and regulations. It employs around 23,000 officials. In 2011, a think-tank estimated that more than 10,000 Commission staff were paid more than £70,000.)

1. but its a tiny amount of the UK budget
2. WE always could
3. we always could
4. they still wont
5. such as?
6. we still will
7. THe UK Civil service has 440,000 civil servants, many of whom earn a lot more than that. Nothing will change when the Brussels jobs are repatriated

Oh dear where did TodyTodger spring from? Not an original idea there at all, just the tired old soundbites from 28 months ago.
I would add:
5) We have been members for 45 years. If we chose not to engage, then whose fault is that?
However, if Fox gets his way, we will have to accept decisions forced upon us by the USA. This apparently is an acceptable trade off, to the Brexiters.

6. We have to listen to our own politicians babbling utter drivel.

Two and a half years on we should by now have heard which Laws Brexiters don't like and what they want to replace them with. OK apart from slashing workers rights.
Two and a half years on we should be seeing firm plans for putting more money into the NHS - this was the only tangible promise of the Leave campaign.

I'm not sure I put them on here but:

• I had read some TTIP "stuff" from something like Oxfam or Christian aid or some kind of NGO sounding thing.
• It sounded like it was an opaque deal that we needed more influence on, along with some other things that were in negotiation
• I thought remain would definitely win but we needed leave vote numbers for negotiating. Plus some kind of nebulous don't let the authorities think it's too easy sentiment.
• even if by some bizarre fluke leave won the most extreme thing that would happen would be Norway plus model.
• Conclusion: the combination of shit politicians, manipulative interests and my own idiocy meant I cast a vote that has been deemed to mean this shitshow is the voice of the people. Oh and let me not forget ignoring the red flag that made me pause and go "that poster though... you can't vote with those people" to which I convinced myself "don't be silly that's not representative".

The citizens of nowhere speech and all subsequent things now I have actually focused on life again has put paid to that. I had become pretty disengaged from anything much out the work eat clean consume cycle but this whole business has been a slap upside the head.

@falcon5

Why don't you come March with us tomorrow?

www.peoples-vote.uk/march

Thank you falcon for being honest with us. Far too many leave voters still cling to their decision in spite of all the evidence that any kind of brexit will hurt our country for generations and a no-deal brexit could be utterly catastrophic.

I know there are some leavers who will never admit they were wrong, but can you help me persuade a friend who is not racist and not stupid, yet voted to leave beacuse of "the EU gravy-train"?. She does have some leave voting friends but the fact that her husband, children and closest friends all voted Remain doesn't seem to make any difference to her entrenched views.