Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

[MyNameIsArthur]

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

{What do you think the relative merits of Leave and Remain are?}
Leaving is all very well as an idea, it sounds great.
The main issue is that the rest of the planet won't allow the UK to fulfill the promises (?) that were made by politicians who hadn't done their homework.
Great trade deals always have at least 2 sides to them, and even ignoring the EU, the rest of the world will not give 'great' trade deals just because the UK asks.
The UK can be as 'sovereign' as it likes on it's own island, but no one else has to play along as there are not many places that 'NEED' the UK. The delusion of grandeur is killing the UK.

I would learn from different views if the Brexiters would just explain what it is they actually want - in tangible terms that can be checked after the event

The problem is that what we seem to be getting isn't what the leave campaign promised.

So a Brexiter could come on here and list all the things they wanted when they voted, but the Remainers would shoot them down with reasons why those things aren't happening.

It's all well and good saying that people voted leave based on feelings and not facts, but the same goes for people who voted remain

No one actually knew with certainty what would happen either way, why do you think the government made the nation choose? They had no clue either!

Remain vs Leave debates are completely pointless. It's happening one way or another whether people like it or not, why make it more painful by getting all het up on an anonymous Internet forum.....

Arthur

Your aim is laudable but I fear you are wasting your time with some of the zealots here.

The eu could, metaphorically, be found hunched over a corpse with a knife in its hand and some of those on these threads would still find a way to blame the murder on those ‘horrid brexiteers’

10degrees
But on the other hand
five years down the line, when Whitehall is still as crap as ever, will those who voted for Brexit be happy?

{Remain vs Leave debates are completely pointless.}
So if you are driving fast and see a brick wall ahead, do you put the brakes on, or do you say 'bugger it we are all going to die eventually'?
Everyone would love someone to come on and explain realistically, preferably with a timeframe, any plan that will ensure the UK is either no worse off than were were in 2016, or preferably better.

why do you think the government made the nation choose? They had no clue either!

They did it for electoral advantage (get the kipper vote) and to appease the anti EU faction in the Tory party, which has been tearing the party apart since the 1980's.

The only problem was they didn't expect to lose& had no plan B, because there isn't one to be had.

Talk in peace

I like my politicians to earn their money - this might force them to govern... we can start with a sovereign department of trade

we can start with a sovereign department of trade
To do what ?
Tariff rates around the world are incredibly low.
Trade is limited by compliance and coordination
And the UK is a net importer - has been since it asset stripped the Empire.
Effective management of imports is key.

"When I'm ready, I'll answer this"
Hate to tell you but we were asked in 2016. Thanks to a stupidly asked question, lies , gullibility and belligerence, we are where we are. If you have a paddle for our journey up shit creek, I'd be more than happy to see it.

"Sovereign department of trade" - what do you know about international trade? How will being a lone voice with little to offer be better than being in one of the world's largest trade blocs.

{Tory party, which has been tearing the party apart since the 1980's.}
So if the Tories wanted out from the 1980's, where was the preparation for doing it? Mrs T was quite keen on the EU, but firm in what she wanted.
Had they started in the 1980's and had come up with a good plan to sort out a possible border in NI, rather than sending more troops, things could have happened.

Leclerc

What’s wrong with troops being sent into ni back in the day... the place was a full on civil war.

Or do you think lawlessness and murder on the streets will just sort itself out once the body count dies down?

Actually @10degreestostarboard is correct that the troops were originally sent in to protect the nationalist communities from violence. And then .....

why make it more painful by getting all het up on an anonymous Internet forum
It's a place where people come to work through their anger with like minded people. No other good can come of it from what I can see.

10
It seems you can't actually think of anything constructive to say.

You obviously missed the subtlety of saying MORE soldiers. As a plan it clearly wasn't working so a better plan should have been worked on.
There had been a suggestion around 1970 that one section of the community should be 'relocated' to alleviate the problem.

Everyone would love someone to come on and explain realistically, preferably with a timeframe, any plan that will ensure the UK is either no worse off than were were in 2016, or preferably better.

The government don't even have a plan so what makes you think MN users can explain one?

Reason to stay: a large proportion of our charities are funded (at least in part) via the European Social Fund. These charities are already struggling to help people when austerity is cutting services for the most vulnerable people. Without this funding, charities will collapse and there will be no support at all.

{The government don't even have a plan so what makes you think MN users can explain one?}
It was just a vain hope that a leaver might have a plan secreted about their person.
Anything that isn't a shouty soundbite would be good.

Had they (ERG) started in the 1980's and had come up with a good plan to sort out a possible border in NI...

For them and other Brexitiers, the plan isn't to make a success of brexit, its to leave the EU, thats it!!! for these people, NI is neither here nor there, they give it no more thought than closing down pits, steel plants or the collapse of the car industry.

Would I be right in saying that most here have no faith in any of our governments over the years so would prefer the EU influence in our affairs to deliver better social welfare and fairer distribution of wealth amongst other things?

I don't believe the EU has had much influence on how we Govern ourselves nationally.

Don't think its their job to do so either, if we vote in parties that screw us over, that's our fault entirely.

OP are you running a survey or something?

The UK could have restricted FOM, or at least applied & followed the rules properly, within the EU.

The UK could have stopped "health tourism", i.e. people coming to the UK to the use the NHS for free. Obviously this doesn't apply to people from within the EU, but a ridiculous number of comments on social media claim to be sick of this issue, the consequent need to "take our borders back" that I do think it's an issue, especially for people who don't have any real idea of how the EU & immigration work, & how Brexit will affect that - or not.

Obviously there's a possibility that the UK might be in a stronger position in a few decades - but how many of the Leave voters will still be alive to see it, given JRM's prediction that it could take 50 years to see any real benefit. Our DCs will potentially be grandparents by then, & it's relatively unlikely many of us will still be alive.

Umm... maybe it might encourage more people to start to Buy British? For example, seasonal fruit & veg, supporting local industry instead of outsourcing manufacturing, processing etc to other countries because it's cheaper? If it's no longer cheaper, or becomes unavailable simply because it's not economically viable to ship X product halfway round to world, only to be stuck at customs, maybe we'd eat more locally caught salmon, & certain large seafood companies might process their prawns locally, instead of shipping it halfway round the world, then back again because it's cheaper. Supporting the British economy, albeit by force because of likely delays at customs, seems to be the only vaguely positive outcome I can see so far. People will have to Buy British because there may be a great deal less of anything else available. Australia, in particular, has a lot of support for the "buy local" idea. It's a great shame that the UK no longer does.

Umm... maybe it might encourage more people to start to Buy British? For example, seasonal fruit & veg, supporting local industry instead of outsourcing manufacturing, processing etc to other countries because it's cheaper?

Well, this would be good, but the economist Minford gleefully talked about our farming and industry being destroyed, and this appears to be what the hard right want if we crash out. That would make this aspiration impossible.

In a similar vein, I would like to see us train many more of our own health care professionals, right across the board. I am quite sure there would be no shortage of good candidates to take up the places. This isn't a quick fix though - starting now it would take say at least 6 years for the first nursing graduates to come from a new school of nursing e.g. three in the planning and setting up to get the school up and running and three for training. At best this is a medium solution.

Apart from the Leaver voters in the "kick out all the Muslims" school, I wouldn't mind betting that more health care training for UK people is something a good many Leavers would be able to get behind. But what has stopped Governments doing that now? It's always been cheaper to let someone else stump up for the training.

The UK will always have to be part of a trade bloc with someone as it is not self sufficient. It can't become a 'powerhouse' of anything in particular because it doesn't have the natural resources of say Germany or the agricultural resources of France, being the nearest equivalent neighbours.
It is the decades of decline in the fabric of UK society, the former industrial areas particularly, that make any recovery exceedingly difficult. The UK generally will have to compete with other countries that are already doing activities either better or cheaper. The UK is good at science and technology development but the 'taking it to market' needs collaboration with bigger players, so encouraging EU scientists to leave by being 'hostile' and cutting development budgets, is killing our opportunities.