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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Thread gallery
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GloriaGaynor · 30/01/2017 21:23

What is particular about Pétain regime, they didn't just follow orders, they didn't just collude, they actively went out of their way to do things that hadn't been asked of them.

And that is what will happen here.

Peregrina · 30/01/2017 21:25

People are fickle, and the pendulum can swing quickly. The ordinary folks will be able to say it wasn't them (excepting a few on MN who have made it clear they don't give a f*ck about others), but May, Johnson, Redwood, and others won't be able to. Johnson and Redwood are slippery enough to try to get out of it, May isn't a quick thinker, so won't get out quickly.

GloriaGaynor · 30/01/2017 21:29

May is very blinkered and very naive. She doesn't have the wit to hedge her bets with Trump - quite apart from the fact she has clearly not got his number.

unicornsIlovethem · 30/01/2017 21:32

If/ when the pendulum shifts, I think Boris could be in real trouble. As FS he is too committed now - Emily Thornberry was able to have fun with him earlier. The more he twists and evades the more damaged he becomes.

Badders123 · 30/01/2017 21:38

They all are....
May, boris, JRM, all the rabid right wing tories inc soames (who made dog noises at a female snp mp today)
They will be reviled
And rightly so
Hope it doesn't take too long....

Badders123 · 30/01/2017 21:41

Agree May hasn't the wit to get out of this

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 21:44

BuzzFeed News ‏*@BuzzFeedNews*
New Orleans is considering becoming a “sanctuary city”
www.buzzfeed.com/jasonwells/protests-against-refugee-ban?utm_term=.vuWzdRj5N&sub=4451986_10428932#.qg42PMr9z

That's a BIG statement.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2017 21:49

imo, Brexit alone, i.e. with a "normal" US president, wouldn't damage the EU much.

BUT Trump & Bannon rule the world's only superpower
They want to dismantle the EU, NATO, UN and every other institution that is thought to be a rival to US power, or that may restrict it. Or that stands against chaos.

btw, I remember that Trump attended at least one Sinn Fein fundraiser while the IRA were still bombing.
So, he may want to dismantle the UK too, at least in part.
I'm in favour of a united Ireland, but not one created by Trump

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2017 21:58

yy to pendulum:

In the UK, we only have to remember the years 1997 to about 2005, most Tories were very depressed and couldn't see how they could ever win a GE again
Bedore that, in the 1980s, it was Labour who couldn't see how to win.

In the US, Republican strategists since at least 2000 have been writing that demographic changes mean they have to keep winning an ever higher proportion of the shrinking white vote.
Well, gerrymandering helps to put that off.
Also, this Trump coup may be to try to delay or prevent that danger

GhostofFrankGrimes · 30/01/2017 22:06

Nicholas Soames MP 'woofs' at Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh MP

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38802084

InformalRoman · 30/01/2017 22:09

RTB, there was an execllent Radio 4 programme on this afternoon about Leah Chase, who runs a restaurant in New Orleans that was a haven for black rights activists and has been singled out for visits by presidents. She praised the help the city received from Mexicans after Hurricane Katrina, and was pretty scathing about Trump. It's well worth a listen.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bz0s2

SwedishEdith · 30/01/2017 22:17

Don't know if this has been posted yet.

The time is now @devchelle
@RoguePOTUSStaff there are rumors of anti LGBT EO coming. Can you shed light on that?

Rogue POTUS Staff ‏**@RoguePOTUSStaff**

Rumors are true. Expect by end of the week.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2017 22:18

Nicholas Soames ^
^
After the 1997 Labour landslide, the Tory MP Nicholas Soames started baiting the new Labour women MPs - when they spoke during House of Commons debates Angry - by cupping his hands to form imaginary breasts then wiggling them and whispering loudly:
“melons"^

Strong women got together and struck back:
whenever he rose to speak, they would mime the turning of a small key and shout
"Click !"
That totally pissed him off - you know why ? ....

Because of a famous quote by another woman who stated that:

having sex with Nicholas Soames was
“like having a double wardrobe fall on top of you with a very small key sticking out”.

Motheroffourdragons · 30/01/2017 22:24

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2017 22:25

Frankie Boyle
@frankieboyle
The most right wing leader and cabinet in modern history, jingoism, millions about to lose their healthcare, and America's just as bad.

GloriaGaynor · 30/01/2017 22:25

Theresa May told a refugee ban was coming

Team Trump told Theresa May when she was in the White House that they were about to ban refugees from coming to the US, using an Executive Order. The US administration team don’t appear to have gone into detail about what exactly they planned for dual nationals. It’s not clear whether they listed Muslim countries from which visitors would be banned.

Headfullofdreams · 30/01/2017 22:29

This is not going to go away for May.

FionaJT · 30/01/2017 22:32

Delurking for the first time in a while to add that the inevitable swinging of the pendulum is what makes all protest at this time so important, even if it seems futile. Keeping an alternative narrative going makes it clear that supporting Brexit/Trump is a choice people have made, not an inevitability we all have to accept, so less chance to wriggle out of responsibility further down the line. And there has to be an alternative ready for when the pendulum swings back. (Ideally, of course, that would be the parliamentary opposition..)

Badders123 · 30/01/2017 22:37

Fiona
Well said!
👍

user1484653592 · 30/01/2017 22:42

It's brilliant that people in the UK are vocal about Trump but I am sad and despondent that they are not as confidently vocal about Brexit.

I understand why this is but still... There is fear of being labelled a remoaner or even a traitor, possibly fear of repercussions after Jo Cox's murder. Overall most of us have been influenced, albeit to varying degrees, by decades of anti-EU and anti immigration campaigns.

Saying that, I am extremely glad the protest today are showing a stance for our fellow Muslim citizens especially after the horrific events in Quebec. I am scared that Quebec will result in retaliation giving Trump a 'reason' to do something crass. Sad

Peregrina · 30/01/2017 22:45

whenever he rose to speak, they would mime the turning of a small key and shout
"Click !"
That totally pissed him off - you know why ? ....
Grin Grin

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 22:51

www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/30/iraqi-government-votes-to-ban-us-visitors-following-trumps-executive-action-on-immigration/
Iraqi government votes to ban us visitors

Implications unclear for troops currently out there

Susan Hennessey ‏*@Susan*_Hennessey
Friend with recently returned family member: "I'm just thanking God he's home." Lots of military families can't say that right now.

And May seems to have upset the Queen AGAIN, by saying that the invitation to Trump came from the Queen and advisors and not her:
www.ft.com/content/a1079a7a-e6e6-11e6-893c-082c54a7f539
UK left flailing after contradictory signals on Trump travel ban

Insiders say this provoked anger from Buckingham Palace, and Mrs May later was forced to clarify, acknowledging during an evening press conference in Dublin, “I issued the invitation” and “that invitation stands”.

Sam Coates Times ‏*@SamCoatesTimes*
On Buckingham Palace anger, apparently particular irritation felt at the way Theresa May offered the state visit as part of press conference
... The Palace does not, I get the impression, think that State Visits are political baubles to be dangled at press conferences...
.... the Palace believe that the state visit invitation is from one head of state to another - the PM is effectively message carrier ...
... it's not for No10 to weaponised a state visit invite to its advantage in a press conference.

Whhoooppps.

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CeciledeVolanges · 30/01/2017 22:57

The pendulum will not swing. In my opinion (and i thought Brexit would happen and Trump would be elected.)

But I still want to do whatever I can. Do you think anyone would join me in some sort of Article 50 protest? I think it is unlikely. I was thinking of writing to Theresa May because why the fuck not

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 22:58

Saying that, I am extremely glad the protest today are showing a stance for our fellow Muslim citizens especially after the horrific events in Quebec. I am scared that Quebec will result in retaliation giving Trump a 'reason' to do something crass.

You mean the shooting done by a white right wing known Trump supporter and troll that has been reported very differently than by the WH?

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:00

The pendulum will not swing.

This. What evidence is there that it will shift? The Anti-Trump petition certainly has no particular hint of that.

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