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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Peregrina · 30/01/2017 23:01

Think of Cameron having to apologise to the Queen when he was heard saying that she purred over the result of the Scottish Indy Ref. Think another apology to the Queen will be in order from May. May doesn't seem to mind who she upsets as long as it's not her Tory right wing.

PausingFlatly · 30/01/2017 23:05

And there has to be an alternative ready for when the pendulum swings back. (Ideally, of course, that would be the parliamentary opposition..)

Well indeed, Fiona. I'm concerned we don't leap out of the frying pan into the fire: it's all very well people "choosing change", but I'm quite fussy what that change actually is.

Multi-millionaire Arron Banks, little pal of Farage & Bannon who has just launched his new UK "news" site, would quite like the change to be 200 shiny new MPs of his own political "movement" at the next UK election...

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:07

europe.newsweek.com/republicans-travel-ban-550336?utm_campaign=socialflowT&utm_source=socialflowtwitter&utm_medium=articles
Hill Republicans: We Had No Input on Travel Ban

One of the White House’s main defenses of President Donald Trump’s new ban on foreigners from certain Muslim-majority countries is that the executive order was, in fact, drafted by fellow Republicans in Congress. Leading House Republicans, however, are pushing back on that claim, insisting they were not consulted on the text of the order, let alone involved in writing it. And they argue that a white paper Trump allies are citing as the basis for the order was, in fact, very different in content and scope

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GloriaGaynor · 30/01/2017 23:07

It will Cecile because it always does.

Regimes based on lies, illusion, injustice, force never last. They all collapse eventually. As Auden said 'the devil loses because he cheats'.

If the Soviet Union can fall and Nazism be defeated - this too will pass.

user1484653592 · 30/01/2017 23:07

Yes red utterly awful and cold blooded, it does't bare thinking about. Inhumane. What if this results in a significant act of retaliation by ISIS.. that would increase trump's powers so much.

Peregrina · 30/01/2017 23:13

If the Soviet Union can fall and Nazism be defeated - this too will pass.

Spain too was eventually restored to democracy once Franco passed away.
It can take a long time though. We will have to dig in for a long haul.

woman12345 · 30/01/2017 23:14

Do you think anyone would join me in some sort of Article 50 protest
Yes, I think that labour/libs/SNP are buoyed by Trump protests, Yes we should protest, yes before this Wednesday night.
Big ask, but she's rail roading this with indecent haste.
Barely two days for generations of progress decimated.
Yes please Cecile post anything you hear of.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/30/brexit-bill-to-pass-without-amendment-as-tory-rebels-back-off
Multi-millionaire Arron Banks, little pal of Farage & Bannon who has just launched his new UK "news" site, would quite like the change to be 200 shiny new MPs of his own political "movement" at the next UK election
Any one else notice that this is not reported, discussed?...

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:16

My worry. If the conservatives don't get a majority in 2020 then what?

Who would form government with them if they didn't?
And if they couldn't then what?

Do you want anyone else to take the poison chalice of blame being in government whilst the shit is hitting the fan?

Remembering that 2020-2025 is going to be the shit bit and fascism tends to breed in shitness. You need someone to pick up the pieces and offer an alternative at this point, once everyone has realised that right has failed.

In some ways, the Lib Dems and Labour would be wise to stay well clear for their political ends and so the right takes all the heat. To play the long game for the sake of the country, otherwise we could be driven right to the edge of the right.

BUT of course the problem is what damage the right can do in the meantime. And there will be no NHS left by then. Nor probably a United Kingdom.

Its Hobson's Choice. What's the least worst option? Is there one?

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Peregrina · 30/01/2017 23:20

I sincerely hope that the LibDems don't shore up the Tories another time.

I wonder if May would really like to be the architect of the break up of the UK? Fine for her - southern England stays wealthy and that is all her party care about now.

SwedishEdith · 30/01/2017 23:25

Louise Mensch ‏*@LouiseMensch*

If this is the #BannonDistractionOfTheDay it's a damned good one. National Soviet Adviser #MoscowMike Flynn deletes his account

Louise Mensch added,
William Peace 🇺🇸 @WilliamPeace81
Mike Jr has also deleted his account. Blackmail tapes being released?

Louise Mensch Retweeted William Peace 🇺🇸
Don't get my hopes up

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:26

Ghost Ryder @cateia97
I believe RoguePOTUSstaff is a Russian disinformation account, and I'll prove it. (Bear with me)

Rupert Myers ‏*@RupertMyers*
Never trusted it
If you want to understand why Russia would try to simulate both pro and anti Trump activists, read this:
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/hidden-author-putinism-russia-vladislav-surkov/382489/
Vital to understanding how Russia operates

The Kremlin switches messages at will to its advantage, climbing inside everything: European right-wing nationalists are seduced with an anti-EU message; the Far Left is co-opted with tales of fighting U.S. hegemony; U.S. religious conservatives are convinced by the Kremlin’s fight against homosexuality. And the result is an array of voices, working away at global audiences from different angles, producing a cumulative echo chamber of Kremlin support, all broadcast on RT.

Focus on what is British. Focus on the pillars of democracy. Focus on how it can be made stronger. Focus on what it is - and what it is not.

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woman12345 · 30/01/2017 23:29

Trots,, BigChoc not real Labour, but they've parasites onto the party and are sucking it dry. . Bannon type rapturists, wanting complete collapse so the can create their anti semitic shouty man nirvana.
Egits.

CeciledeVolanges · 30/01/2017 23:31

If I see anything I will definitely share. Otherwise I may just go after work when they are debating until midnight - if they debate until midnight - and just stand there a touch pointlessly

GloriaGaynor · 30/01/2017 23:31

I think it's more of a worry that they do frankly. I think it's likely that they will as I don't think the worst of the economic effects will be apparent by then. And Corbyn may still be in residence. Post 2020 Corbyn's gone for good, and MPs can regroup.

I think it will take a decade of economic downturn and trade quagmire to make the worm turn here. Unless some witless May or her successor gets us involved in some unholy debacle with the US.

We're desperately short of a de Gaulle - a leader with a vision that Remainers can unite around. And a bunch of MPS with a shared vision who can work together. But they may come out of the woodwork.

woman12345 · 30/01/2017 23:31

Please don't make me look at Louise Mensch's twitter feed.

But the reason why everything on this thread and the nice US one, is from twitter is because US press is closing down. Spicer just fibbed to silence today.

woman12345 · 30/01/2017 23:31

Thanks Cecile

GloriaGaynor · 30/01/2017 23:33

^That was a reply to If the conservatives don't get a majority in 2020 then what?

CeciledeVolanges · 30/01/2017 23:34

Climate change has never been a factor before. Or nuclear weapons on this scale, or cyberattacks which could disable entire infrastructure. Of course it will pass, but will anyone be left standing? Sorry to be so gloomy but this is what keeps me up at night

CeciledeVolanges · 30/01/2017 23:35

And just as a PS, this little worm has turned (it is like "this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine" but with an annelid)

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:39

Sounding like the Democrats are going to try and delay or block as many of the rest of Trumps appointments as possible. They have to. If Sessions gets in, its game over.

So this makes perfect sense.

Matt Viser ‏*@mviser*
This is huge: The DOJ under orders from acting AG/Obama appointee won’t defend Trump’s executive order.

edition.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/donald-trump-immigration-order-department-of-justice/index.html?sr=twtsr0130dojtrump

In effect the government lawyer is not going to defend the government from legal action against the immigration ban.

Sounds like the gloves are off and if one side is going to play dirty, then the other will respond in kind. This is what they needed to do imho.

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PausingFlatly · 30/01/2017 23:41

woman, I've been scared for some time about the way some political dialogue seems to be primarily filled with people gleefully proclaiming their "enemy" parties have fucked up and lost support, be it Tory, Labour or LibDem.

SO WHO DO YOU THINK VOTERS ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR NEXT, EH?

Like it simply hasn't occurred to them (until now - bit bloody late Hmm) that the political landscape isn't fixed. And it's not reason to celebrate if the existing parties fuck up; it's reason to be terrified.

Because to fill the vacuum, a brand new party will come marching out of the mist, with banners and hope and shiny promises it will never have to keep.

SwedishEdith · 30/01/2017 23:42

THE TIMES: Trump visit will hurt the Queen, May is told

I've only started to follow Louise Mensch again for the Trump stuff. She was tweeting about the KGB murder weeks ago - only in papers yesterday.

Peregrina · 30/01/2017 23:43

A week is supposed to be a long time in Politics, so who knows what will have happened by 2020. With luck, May and the rightwingers will have been cleared out for good.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:53

Because to fill the vacuum, a brand new party will come marching out of the mist, with banners and hope and shiny promises it will never have to keep.

HE certainly knows what he is doing doesn't he....

Keep your eyeballs on him.

Noticeable HE is actively trying to distance himself from that other party now. Noticeable HE is trying to market himself as respectable and well spoken. To appeal to the middle classes and get beyond the working class. He will say things that are reasonable and you can agree with at times. Note the interview with Mary Beard.

Notice HE is copying all the strategies that Trump has.

I noticed HIM for what he was only a couple of weeks before the Referendum. HE is good. Seriously good. Goebbels good.

It seems to be that these people come in pairs. One goes first and is the puppet of the other. Trump leads but Bannon is the puppet master.

Over here, we've had the one who has made a name for himself, but he's not the brains of the operation... Watch the other one...

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 23:56

The New York Times ‏*@nytimes*
Trump has authority to fire Sally Yates, but she is the only one authorized to sign foreign surveillance warrants

(Sally Yates is the Acting Attorney General - because Sessions isn't yet confirmed. Watch this. I bet he fires her anyway and just over rules the foreign surveillance warrant problem on National Security grounds).

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