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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Thread gallery
19
SwedishEdith · 31/01/2017 00:02

Re RoguePOTUSstaff - it's definitely something to watch only.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 00:06

Reuters Politics ‏*@ReutersPolitics*
EXCLUSIVE: Trump administration grants waivers to allow 872 refugees into U.S. this week - government document

Are these refugees like the crowds at the inauguration or are they real human beings that we can all see?

Hmmm....

And:

www.politico.com/story/2017/01/trump-national-security-council-cia-234381
Trump adding CIA chief back to National Security Council

His omission was an oversight. Apparently. No joint chiefs of staff though.

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SwedishEdith · 31/01/2017 00:13

This exchange just made me laugh.

Rick WilsonVerified account
‏*@TheRickWilson*

Saying Flynn has "the full confidence of the President and his team" is the warmup for "leaving to spend more time with his family.

Amy Rovin ‏*@MomRovin*@TheRickWilson

oh dear God I hope you are right!!! Do Miller and Bannon have families who would want them back?

CHRISTOPHER SUPRUN ‏*@TheChrisSuprun*

No. They don't.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 00:23

Steven Thomas @thesteventhomas
This is where my US constitutional knowledge falls down a bit, but I always thought the AG's job was to advise the President on the law.
If the Acting AG advises the President that she believes his actions to be unlawful, he can either accept her advice or fire her.
However… if he rejects his AG's advice and the courts then find against him, that could be considered impeachable, I think… or correct me.

So it's a chess move.

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mathanxiety · 31/01/2017 01:08

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38799796
Many US diplomats critical of the Executive Order, to say the least.
'US travel ban: Diplomats 'prepare unprecedented dissent memo''

One of the White House’s main defenses of President Donald Trump’s new ban on foreigners from certain Muslim-majority countries is that the executive order was, in fact, drafted by fellow Republicans in Congress. Leading House Republicans, however, are pushing back on that claim, insisting they were not consulted on the text of the order, let alone involved in writing it. And they argue that a white paper Trump allies are citing as the basis for the order was, in fact, very different in content and scope
Lie down with a dog, get up with his fleas.
Who gives a flying f*%! about the small print in a white paper?
Hopefully the GOP will never recover from their embrace of Steve Bannon and his minion.
It is time to match words and handwringing with actual opposition. They need to put their money where (some of) their mouths are.

...................
I sincerely hope HMQ/Buckingham House tears strips off Theresa May for her gross contempt for the Monarch. I am not a monarchist (being Irish and all) but what the PM did here was completely out of order.

HesterThrale · 31/01/2017 06:48

User I agree with your remarks at 22.42. Right though it is to feel shocked about Trump right now, at this time I think we need to act on Brexit. If I'm right the final vote on A50 is a few short days away.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-26/u-k-commons-to-complete-debate-on-article-50-bill-in-two-weeks

We need to keep up the pressure on MPs to consider not supporting it. I don't think we can stop it, but a sizeable rebellion sends a message to both main party leaders.
Emails, letters, postcards! Remind them of their duty to country and constituents (Churchill):

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmmodern/337/33706.htm

Let them know we're scared that we'll be forced to seek trade deals with questionable nations.

Remind them of the long term damage and their ultimate responsibility to the future of the U.K.!

HesterThrale · 31/01/2017 07:06

A quick laugh:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6hxI_g38o0

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 07:19

Guess what. He fired her. US in big big trouble now. No surprise though. She chose not to betray rule of law. To fire her says everything.

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woman12345 · 31/01/2017 07:19

It's a vote for fascism, we know that.

MPs told to stay in house till midnight, in case remainers ambush bill.
Phone calls today.

Interesting on grounds for impeachment RTB.

But there's no law under fascism. Ask Turkish journalists and university teachers.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 07:34

Quite. woman12345.

My gut feeling is, that unless Congress do something TODAY that's it. Today is the last day.

After today, Trump can not be impeached.

If that happens, I think we will eventually end up going down the same road as Brexit will give the chance to do similar. They already tried that shit with the Gina Miller case, but lost. I think they will try it again though.

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lalalonglegs · 31/01/2017 07:39

Not only did he fire her, RTB, he accused her of having "betrayed" the state department Sad.

I agree, Hester, appalling as events in the US are, I don't want Brexit to move out of the spotlight. We know that these bastards will use any cover they can find to push their own agenda.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 07:50

The Scorpio™ ‏*@blackorpheus251*
The White House has now established the precedent that obeying the U.S. Constitution means “betraying” this President.

Let that sink in.

Law and policy ‏*@Law*andpolicy
The significant issue is not the sacking of an Attorney-General, but the reasons given.

"betrayal"

The language of treachery.

New acting attorney general Dana Boente, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, has said he will enforce the ban.

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RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 08:09

John Dean ‏*@JohnWDean*
The way the Trump presidency is beginning it is safe to say it will end in calamity. It is almost a certainty. Even Republicans know this!

Dan Rebellato ‏*@DanRebellato*

Wow. This guy thinks Trump is heading for disaster. He knows what he's talking about. He's one of the Watergate conspirators.

Problem is the Trump presidency won't end. Its just beginning. They'll be a calamity alright. But it won't be Trump on the receiving end. Unfortunately

Wolfgang Munchau ‏*@EuroBriefing*

Trump already managed to drive wedge between Europeans: dual passport exemption only applies to UK, not EU

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RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 08:17

BBC Breaking News

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
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woman12345 · 31/01/2017 08:22

plan B, here and there.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 08:42

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-will-trigger-brexit-on-march-9-7tnnndgw0
May will trigger Brexit on March 9

She wants the A50 Bill out of the Lords by 7th March.

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TheElementsSong · 31/01/2017 08:47

Quite fascinating seeing the Trump apologists at work on various other threads urging apathy and inaction in all its forms. Not saying they're paid shills before anyone gets up in arms, but if some of them are for real then I've met stromatolites with more get-up-and-go Grin.

GloriaGaynor · 31/01/2017 08:51

Sally Yates' 'betrayal' reminds me of this Goerring quote (which I think I've posted before):

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 08:55

time.com/4575780/stephen-bannon-fourth-turning/

A second, more alarming, interaction did not show up in the film. Bannon had clearly thought a long time both about the domestic potential and the foreign policy implications of Strauss and Howe. More than once during our interview, he pointed out that each of the three preceding crises had involved a great war, and those conflicts had increased in scope from the American Revolution through the Civil War to the Second World War. He expected a new and even bigger war as part of the current crisis, and he did not seem at all fazed by the prospect.

I did not agree, and said so. But, knowing that the history of international conflict was my own specialty, he repeatedly pressed me to say we could expect a conflict at least as big as the Second World War in the near or medium term. I refused.

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woman12345 · 31/01/2017 08:56

Fortunately, we women, are well versed in the 'calm down dear' approach to dialectics!
Don't lose momentum.
Phone today, I phoned MP's office at 7.30am, just had call back from his secretary, no movement on voting to trigger, but spicy conversation from rattled tories.
Keep rattling the cage!
Phone!

woman12345 · 31/01/2017 08:57

We must have 20-30 MPs represented on this thread?
If you know someone in neighbouring constituency please urge them to phone too.

missmoon · 31/01/2017 09:16

When is the vote woman? Is it today? What did you say (roughly) when you called?

woman12345 · 31/01/2017 09:31

RTB is much better at this than me, I think it's tomorrow, I think it will go through. missmoon

But, but, but.
MPs have never ever seen anything like this public response before.
They may be walking the walk of hard line Tory Mays. but look how high Bojo's voice went yesterday.
They know what they are doing.
They are victims of Banks' coup.
They also know how they are colluding.

My line is:
1 MPs are representatives not delegates (USSR operated on that system and much as I would prefer free heating, housing and higher education, it had its faults as a system Grin)
2 Look to their conscience.

3 Vote in best interests of constituents.

that's it.
The PA I talked to, was also a bit shrill and weepy ( boy)
Think they are rattled.
Phone today!

It's a process of democratic attrition and this could be the last time we get to use it.

Headfullofdreams · 31/01/2017 09:32

My MP is the worst Euro sceptic in the HofP. He started this whole mess. Have written to him but just get arrogant, obnoxious replies from him. Very marginal seat too, less than 500 votes in it.

GloriaGaynor · 31/01/2017 09:32

Goering's only got one R! (Just as Hitler only has one ball).