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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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missmoon · 31/01/2017 09:33

Will call today. My MP is a soft Tory...

woman12345 · 31/01/2017 09:36

Headfullofdreams I still think it's worth nagging them, no matter what they're like. They have never had a reaction like this before.
And the contempt with which May has treated NI, Wales and Scotland will not be forgotten, and they already have accurate memories of English colonial history.

MercyMyJewels · 31/01/2017 09:38

Goering has two but very small

Headfullofdreams · 31/01/2017 09:40

Woman, any ideas on best way to approach him? He will not reply again. I asked him to make a public statement saying so when he said he did not agree with Trump's Muslim Ban. Got no response to that.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 09:47

This is a List of MPs who justified, excused or threw in the straw man about the Trump Administration in some way during last night's debates:

Boris Johnson CON
Dr Julian Lewis CON
Sir Willam Cash CON
John Redwood CON
Jacob Rees-Mogg CON
Sir Nicholas Soames CON
Sir Edward Leigh CON
Sir Gerald Howarth CON
Ian Paisley DUP
Henry Smith CON
Andrew Bridgen CON
Nigel Adams CON
Robert Jenrick CON
Richard Drax CON
Philip Davies CON
David Nuttall CON
Peter Bone CON
Kevin Hollinrake CON
David Morris CON

Notice anything in particular? Other than them all be CON/DUP....

Who would have thought.

OP posts:
Ontopofthesunset · 31/01/2017 09:50

Cash, Redwood, Rees-Mogg. Ugh.

Bolshybookworm · 31/01/2017 09:50

See my mp is in there, quelle surprise.

woman12345 · 31/01/2017 09:50

I phoned constituency office and left a message and phone direct to HOC
www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-your-mp/\
They all have offices with Pas, leave a message.
It's important to practise arguing outside our space! I'm not v good verbally, but it's all good practice!
And practising too in the Brexit arms, I'm going in Grin wish me luck.
We have to.

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 09:51

Missmoon, today MPs are debating this afternoon until midnight. No vote today.

Then tomorrow they are debating from sometime afternoon until the evening, but I'm not sure what time. The HoC schedule is not listing actual times for this.

If I find out anything further I will post.

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woman12345 · 31/01/2017 09:53

Now Ian Paisley junior was wonderful on Mc Guiness's retirement. There are ways in, I am sure to persuade them: his father's belated conversion to consensus politics?

Headfullofdreams · 31/01/2017 09:54

Mine is on the list too. Despicable man.

Woman, good luck with that!

woman12345 · 31/01/2017 10:05

Well, what else can we do?
Thing I like about old Bisoph Tutu, was in the face of the most obscene oppression in apartheid South Africa he kept faith with people. Trust is what they fear the most.

woman12345 · 31/01/2017 10:05

Bishop Tutu

user1484653592 · 31/01/2017 10:07

"Notice anything in particular? Other than them all be CON/DUP.... " That they are all male? Or anything else?

What can I tell my MP if I call his office today?

TuckersBadLuck · 31/01/2017 10:11

That they are all male? Or anything else?

They're all stomach-churning, self-serving scumbags?

Badders123 · 31/01/2017 10:12

My mp is there too the scumbag

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 10:15

All WHITE males.

This is the list of Tory dissenters from yesterday:
Crispin Blunt CON
Sir Simon Burns CON
Nadhim Zahawi CON
Anna Soubry CON
Robert Neill CON
Keith Simpson CON
Sir Desmond Swayne CON
Ben Howlett CON
Cheryl Gillan CON
Jake Berry CON
Dr Tania Mathias CON
Alex Chalk CON
Flick Drummond CON
Rehman Chishti CON
Nadhim Zahawi CON
Will Quince CON
Heidi Allen CON

Difference is noticeable isn't it?

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Badders123 · 31/01/2017 10:17

Come on...let's call them what they are......appeasers.
History will judge them very harshly.

Headfullofdreams · 31/01/2017 10:19

Never mind history, I am already judging them AngryAngryAngry

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2017 10:19

Keith Vaz made the point that there are 3 Yemeni Born MPs in addition to Iraqi born Nadhim Zahawi who has got the publicity. Vaz is one. Flick Drummond is the second. Not sure who the third is.

Rumours that are flying about, that the ban will be extended to Pakistan. Also rumours flying about regarding Trans community which are pretty damn harsh and could directly affect British nationals if true.

Hoping they stay rumours.

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woman12345 · 31/01/2017 10:22

So 'commonwealth' trade deals a bit compromised?

LurkingHusband · 31/01/2017 10:30

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/30/trumps_corporate_twitter_trolling_tapped_to_support_puppies/

US President Donald Trump's tweets about Boeing, General Motors, and Toyota have affected the companies' stock price – and creative agency T3 believes that consequence will be repeated.

So the self-styled think tank created the Trump and Dump Bot to profit from presidential tweet-lashings. The bot shorts stocks based on the algorithmically detected sentiment expressed in the tweet – the assumption being that castigation by Trump will depress the value of the stock.

(contd)

Peregrina · 31/01/2017 10:35

Come on...let's call them what they are......appeasers.
You beat me to it, although I was going to say that now we have a list of the Quislings.

My MP thankfully was not on the list, although she didn't dissent either. I wonder if this was a stirring of conscience or whether she was absent?

LurkingHusband · 31/01/2017 10:37

At the risk of derailing this thread to talk about Brexit ... has anyone resad this thread in AIBU ?

It may be imagination, but I am sure I can hear pennies dropping.

missmoon · 31/01/2017 10:39

Thanks! I've left an answerphone message and have e-mailed to her this morning. She's not on the list, but then she hardly ever speaks in the HoC.

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