So the people were right about EU Superstate Military....

[SayWhat123]

"Has Britain avoided a ‘European superstate’? France and Germany ‘draw up plans to morph EU countries into one with control over members’ armies and economies’"

"Plans for 'a closer European Union' have been branded an attempt to create a 'European superstate'.

Germany's foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and his French counterpart Jean-Marc Ayrault today presented a proposal for closer EU integration based on three key areas - internal and external security, the migrant crisis, and economic cooperation.

But the plans have been described as an 'ultimatum' in Poland, with claims it would mean countries transfer their armies, economic systems and border controls to the EU."

*Apparently Poland is very unhappy with this as they do not want German troops on their soil again and have threatened to negotiate with Russians (whom they were recently asking for protection from).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html

So according to Reuters, the EU wants to establish priorities and promote integrated policy on foreign and security matters - also stating that countries wishing to co-operate in defence should be able to do this in a flexible manner

And which particular unelected, unaccountable commissioners are going to decide what "flexibility" involves? Or decide what the priorities for foreign and security policy should be? (And please don't tell me they'll "consult" and "listen" because we've been there too often before and seen how it ends)

It genuinely baffles me that so many appear to miss the (at least to me) blatantly obvious aim here - a rapid expansion of a superstate under the control of a self-selecting, utterly self interested few

I'm not going to have the commissioners argument again. However I will say that you are reading into this what you want and in no way does this imply any of the stuff you think it does.

Tinfoil hats on eh guys.

puzzled I know, blinkers on and fingers in ears!

Surprising how so many people are willing to give independence up so easily.

This stuff isn't knew. Juncker was harping on about it in 2015.

Then I think it was quietened down and ridiculed pre the referendum.

It was my main reason for voting Leave. This idea of a EU superstate. We last has a referendum in 1975 and it sure as hell wasn't for that!!!

New, not knew. Sorry

I find it laughable that someone who voted leave would say that others are putting their fingers in their ears.

I'll start folding the tin foil for you.

Oh and if we were in the EU and a Superstate was proposed, We would veto it, so would Denmark and Sweeden. I've a feeling the Poles and Romanians, Greeks etc would too.

Its deusional to think otherwise, and takes the information available and makes massive leaps of faith with it.

But its ok Brexiteers, we're just going to get a Norway style deal and be worse off than we were inside the EU.

Well done, good for you.

Yes rooner I've found links that go back a bit. Nothing is for certain but I'd rather not be in the position so this could happen.

Too much power being handed over to people that are easily corruptible, it's a scary thought.

You mean like Boris or Gove? Both corrupted by their links to press barons?

You lot just go agreeing with each other, you're all delusional.

small why do you think we are so weak unless we are attached to the euro zone? Why do you need to be part of something to make you feel safe? Why do you think we are all doomed? Why don't you think we can stand on our two feet? Even the remain MPs are starting to say we will be ok.

It's bizzare

They are all liars. I'd rather have elected liars we can kick out than faceless liars we don't even know or can't even elect doing our bidding - well the EU bidding.

Speak for yourself i know my mep - she even intervened when my landlord refused to pay back my deposit and got it back for me. If you don't know who your you elected as MEP that is your fault.

SayWhat
About your point about why Polish government would have leaked this while begging the UK to stay in the EU
You may not know this but Donald Tusk, the EU Commission President, and the governing party - PIS - are at opposing ends of the political spectrum: Tusk is from a liberal, pro EU party whereas PIS are a bunch of hate-fuelled Christian Right Conservatives with delusions of grandeur and a feeling of entitlement (they believe the world owes them, big time, and see the country as a perpetual victim of foreign influences). Poland's political situation is in much turmoil, as well. The government are themselves very against the EU and are scaremongering and spreading hate amongst the Polish people.

That argument is bizare Kim, I don't think we're weak, I certainly think we are far stronger in the EU.

Why don't you think we can't stand on our own two feet? Um we already do but we benefit greatly from being in the EU.

The remaining MPs are starting to say we'll be OK so people don't panic. Also because it looks like we will negotiate an EEA style deal ( as we all said prior) or go have a second referendum on this.

Oh and the faceless liars argument is just incorrect and kind of a deonstration of the delusion. What laws have the EU made that really badly effected life in the UK?

Can you tell me Kim, outside the EU how are we better off?

I don't want to hear: "Free to make our own laws and trade deals" I've dealt with that before.

I want you to tell me how if we don't have full access to the single market that things will be better.

I'm talking about the big guns at the top. The president and the Vice Presidents do you know who they are? Do you think they would have helped you with your deposit?

That is why Poland need a country like the UK to lead the way to reform the EU and show that bigotry and xenophobia do not belong in the 21 century. I thought the UK had been doing this rather well so far and am frankly more and more gutted by the result of the referendum.

small your asking me questions then telling me what answers I can't give, then demanding I answer more.

Why do you think people in this country are not capable of doing their own trade agreements? Like they do with the rest of the world - it's crazy!

The sky is not about to fall in. The single market wasn't as good as was prophesied any way, it left a lot of people out of work. It swings both ways

They are capable of doing there own trade agreements, don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is why do you thing that we will be able to strike these trade agreements quickly ( the head of the WTO poured scorn on this) and ones that are only totally on UK terms?

Why are you so willing to dismiss the largest market in the world and to make our trade with it, that we heavily rely on on, in favour of making deals with countries that provide us with 26% of our trade? Why are you willing to dismiss the vast majority of the expert views in favour of one held by a few ?

If the single market was so bad why did virtually all British business want to stay in the EU?

I'm keen to know why you think we will be better off outside the EU.

Oh and if we were in the EU and a Superstate was proposed, We would veto it, so would Denmark and Sweeden. I've a feeling the Poles and Romanians, Greeks etc would too.

Are you not even the slightest bit uneasy about the fact it's even been broached? Doesn't it make you question even a little bit, what might lie ahead in the future?

Its not rally being broached is it though. Find me an EU document that says: "proposals to make a supestate".

You totally misunderstand the EU works if you think this could be done by stealth.

The UK and other countries would have to give up their veto, not going to happen, not going to be done by stealth either.

"Its not rally being broached is it though. Find me an EU document that says: "proposals to make a supestate". "

Have you ever watched 'Yes Minister'?

There's no way a Sir Humphrey would be so crass as to use overt language on a (controversial?) persuasion process. It'd be all positive, slightly nebulous, but generally positive terms, to lead people on - a kind of political grooming.

Yes minister is well observed but its not a documentary is it?

The reasons you bring that up is you can't find concrete proof for your assertions. As prevously stated the UK and other EU countries would have to give up their veto on such matters for this to be the case and that wouldn't happen as it would be very unwelcome dometically.

You lots seem to think that the EU is some shadowy bond villain trying to take over the UK by stealth rather than being an organisation we cooperate with and work within. One that gives us a heck of a load of concessions that other countries don't get, and one where we have a far larger than representative vote in the council of ministers with.

Gosh, it really is bat shit round here.

You do know that the Daily Mail publish more 'stories' about the EU that are subsequently debunked than any other paper?

I haven't made any assertions

I haven't, and wouldn't, say that 'Yes Minister' was a documentary.

But I think one would be wrong underestimate it's general accuracy. I was not citing a particular episode, incident, or quotation and that was on purpose. What I think matters is the overall approach.

One would also be incorrect to think that documents prepared for discussion at meetings, that make very vague statments are going to lead toward an EU Superstate.

In fact you have to make so many jumps of logic to get there it could be said to be verging on the fanciful.

I think you've missed the point if you believe that the absence of a document with the word Superstate scrawled across it is proof that it's never been mentioned.

How do you know which countries would and wouldn't use their vetos or how long they'd continue to veto under prolonged pressure? How do you know that we won't one day have a weaker, less resilient PM more prone to buckling in the face of bullying by the likes of a stronger Juncker?

You don't know. You just hope. And you waft away the smoke.