So the people were right about EU Superstate Military....

[SayWhat123]

"Has Britain avoided a ‘European superstate’? France and Germany ‘draw up plans to morph EU countries into one with control over members’ armies and economies’"

"Plans for 'a closer European Union' have been branded an attempt to create a 'European superstate'.

Germany's foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and his French counterpart Jean-Marc Ayrault today presented a proposal for closer EU integration based on three key areas - internal and external security, the migrant crisis, and economic cooperation.

But the plans have been described as an 'ultimatum' in Poland, with claims it would mean countries transfer their armies, economic systems and border controls to the EU."

*Apparently Poland is very unhappy with this as they do not want German troops on their soil again and have threatened to negotiate with Russians (whom they were recently asking for protection from).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html

There's no way a Sir Humphrey would be so crass as to use overt language on a (controversial?) persuasion process. It'd be all positive, slightly nebulous, but generally positive terms, to lead people on - a kind of political grooming

exactly, it's not as if politicians don't have form for misleading the public now is it

I haven't, and wouldn't, say that 'Yes Minister' was a documentary

You'd be in interesting company if you did ... isn't it Margaret Thatcher who was supposed to have joked about that being just what it was??

Smallfox you've posted several times about the advantage of the UK's veto, so can you tell me how many decisions we've been able to block among the Council of Ministers when it came to a vote? If you like, just concentrate on the last five years to May 2016 ... go on, how many?

You don't know either, you just look for confirmation of your wild theories in anything and take your line from the Express and the Mail.

Confirmation bias and a critical thinking fail.

"exactly, it's not as if politicians don't have form for misleading the public now is it"

Which side did most of the misleading in this debate?

The UK is on the winning side 90% of the time when it comes to a vote, since 1994 when voting started.

However it is far more complex than that, when we look at what issues never made it to a vote and combine them with ones that do. The UK government's agenda/obejctives are met 97% of the time

Can you tell me what the votes that they have lost are?

I wouldn't dispute that there have been plenty of agreements too, smallfox, but since you made so much a big thing of mentioning our veto it was this in particular I was asking about - and wondering if you could tell me how often we'd been able to use it successfully?

As far as I know its only once had to veto anything.

But then things never get that far, and it has an absolute veto on things like new members and defence decisions etc. Every country does, the UK also has an opt out of all matters to do with justice.

Isn't that interesting that in so long the Veto has only been used once, and on farm prices.

Can you tell me what laws have been imposed by the EU that are so unsatisfactory that you feel the EU has made life worse in the UK because of it?

small we have two buisnesses and we don't need to be in EU, so no not virtually every one.

We had a choice, the majority choose out. No superstate for us! Sheeple and chicken littlers that way 👈🏻👈🏻👈🏻👈🏻

Oh wow, two businesses? Oh my I must bow to your far superior knowledge and experience.

Enjoy Christmas, you turkey.

There are always think tanks that come up with stupid ideas

The daily mail reports them as facts....and then they are forgotten

There was one the other day and i honestly cant remember what it was...but it was truly dumb

No you don't need to bow down just stating fact as you seem to think all buisness need the EU. They don't. That response made you sound petty and jealous though.... No need to get nasty.

Not jealousy, sarcasm.

Tell me Kim, how will your two businesses fare when large employers in your area stop investing? How will it fare when public service cuts mean redundancies in the local councils, schools and hospitals? How will it fair when inflation destroys consumer spending power? How will it fare in the next 3 months when consumer spending drops due to a lack of consumer confidence due to the chaos that abounds?

How will your children fare in the decade that will be filled with this uncertainty? With fewer and worse public services?

Nasty? Thanks for missing the fact that you stated that i was "sheeple" I was just returning the compliment.

You don't know any of that will happen. You really don't.

Why do you keep demanding people 'tell you' things. Are you stamping your foot too?

Have a good evening snall I'm out now

I'm very secure in my understanding of the economic implications thanks.

I'm fairly sure you aren't.

I've pretty much been on the money about everything that has happened so far.

You have no evidence or analysis that backs any of your fantasy realities of the future, and owning two businesses doesn't give you any authority.

I ask you to tell me because you're very vague about everything that's why. Oh and no foot stamping :)

Why is my owning buisnesses such an issue to you? You said virtually every one with buisnesses needs EU, that's just not true at all that's why I told you. I have never said anywhere that it gives me authority (authority for what I don't know) but I had a vote which was my choice, I used it. And it was the majority. That's all.

Good night small

Its not an issue, but I didn't say EVERY business needs the EU, I said the majority of British business preferred to remain, and the CBI, BCC, IOD and numerous industry bodies back that up, again twisting words to suit your agenda.

You also used owning your own business as an appeal to authority because you think it validates your point.

Appeals to authority tend to be made when there is a lack of further critical analysis.

If they makes you feel better

I wasn't the one appealing to authority, I could, but I feel better putting forward a clear and nuanced analysis. Something you have failed repeatedly to do.

Did anyone hear Merckel's response today?

"This is a great blow to the European Unification project"

When the fuck was THAT agreed to? No wonder the EU has utterly lost touch with the average person.

Personally I think the idea of a Europe wide force for peacekeeping / border monitoring is quite valid - it would even create jobs for those who want a military career. Frontex already exists, but can't cope, so NATO is doing their job at the moment Eurogendfor already exists too, and I think can operate in the EU, and once in, can be hard to get rid of.

Do be careful what you wish for, you might find it's already there!

Puzzledandpissedoff Look up CSFP and CSDP; these things already exist.

European Unification project

conjures up an image of multitudes of people, all in lockstep

certainly doesnt sound as if they go much on diversity and individuality does it

Not when you consider the last referendum was in 1975!!!

You know - if this happened now, it would have happened sooner rather than later. Someone else would have jumped ship. Or Greece would have gone down.

It was too far removed from what people want and desire. Perhaps globalisation means people need an amount of national pride at the same time. I don't mean in the racist sense - please - this is a philosophical debate. But I think human beings need an identity and this emotive side was being lost.

There were huge emotions behind this decision to Leave by many UK voters. Whether that is logical is another matter. But it simply wasn't considered. So faces with the economic flip side, it simply was not enough to compete with human emotions

Doesn't it brexit makes me feel queasy.

Are you really telling me that the people of the UNITED Kingdom "[conjure] up an image of multitudes of people, all in lockstep" when they hear the word "unification"?

If so don't worry, thanks to Brexit you may soon find yourselves free of the ignonimity of Little England having to march in lockstep with Scotland etc.