Probably going down in flames...

[Ophelialovescats]

I am saying something here that I cannot say in real life , so ,here goes....I am looking forward to my elderly mother's death...
OMG ! I am evil !

Yes, exactly that about never thinking you'd be in this situation. My Mum was living in her own home with carers coming in 4 times a day and we all assumed her life would end peacefully in the home she'd lived in all her married life...except it didn't pan out that way, and now here we are.

It's lovely that you love your mum so much. I must have sounded pretty hard and uncaring in my previous post, but my relationship with mine was very dysfunctional; I didn't actually realise that until a couple of years ago. I couldn't see for FOG, and spent my entire life trying to please her and win her approval, thinking this was normal and how everybody's relationship was with their mother. I don't love her, and I don't think she ever loved me - she never said as much, at any rate, and she said and did some pretty hurtful things - and when I visit her it's because I know it's expected and I feel I ought to.

It's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about how your parents' choices are going to impact on you in the future. But I think it's good that you're aware of that. Make sure you put limits and conditions in place as things progress so you are still able to live and enjoy your own life. It's not selfish - we only have one life, and we should make the most of it and be as happy as we can. Also you'll have more to talk about with your Mum when you see her

I'm waiting.

It's like the living dead in the nursing home and I often wonder how many other people whose parents are in there are just waiting too.

DM has;

No mobility
Severe muscle wastage
Arthritis
Stage three CKD
High blood pressure
Heart problems
Double incontinence
Insulin dependent diabetes since her late twenties
Dementia setting in

How long can this go on?

I don't judge you in the slightest OP and find reading this thread a relief in some ways but wrt comments about elderly people being self absorbed etc I think in many cases, they just can't see outside their own, often difficult, situation.. I feel resentful a lot sometimes myself but I do know that life outside their immediate challenges is just not seen/taken into account.

@devilinme

that's shocking

@Fucknuckle

probably going into too much detail here, but in terms of the "I love my mum" thing, it came as a bit of a shock to me to find out recently that she feels totally unable to cope if dad goes. Thing is, if dad goes, we could actually move in with her, but we had a very honest conversation about it and it seems it would be no comfort to her at all.

that conversation has impacted on how much I want to see her, because tbh I now feel that she doesn't love me that much! I'm not saying a child can be a consolation prize after the death of a partner - but she really seems to feel her life will be pointless if dad goes before her.

so this in turn made me think, okay, it's clear that when I go with him to hospital appointments to save her the trouble, she's sitting at home riddled with angst anyway. and she wants to spend all her time with him and will probably just fade away, in the mental sense, when he's gone. so that kind of makes me feel a bit hopeless.

Sorry for the delay in posting.

@devilinme - bless you. "How long can this go on?" Exactly. It's like some obscene cosmic joke that doesn't seem to have a punchline.

@Lighthouse - ouch. That's tough. I get your point about not being a "consolation prize", but you would hope that the presence of her children would be some comfort to her...
This is going to sound horrible, and I can't think of a better way of pitching it, and bear in mind that I have always had a dysfunctional relationship with my family so I'm no expert, but maybe that could be a catalyst to you being a bit less selfless and putting yourself first a bit more? I get the sense that maybe you feel that too. I'm sorry if I've just put my dainty size 4 in it in a big way, but it came from a well-meaning place!

Back at Knuckle Towers, where my lovely DH continues to try and untie the Gordian knot that my Mum's finances have become (long story and far too identifying), my DB has taken umbrage at a minor misunderstanding. As I said, I know my experience of family is not normal, but I would have thought this was something we should all be able to talk about and work towards solving together...

And I'm damn sure I shouldn't be frightened of him

@FuckKnuckle

do you mind if I ask, what are you scared of? I totally understand if you don't want to answer.

no, you haven't put your (same size foot as me) in it at all. I have taken it on board as a way to help me manage and to be less in the FOG.

It's funny how this stuff develops - it doesn't really matter to me on an emotional level, but I'm actually quite annoyed that I didn't know before, because I would not have been busting a gut to go there all the time.

the honesty has definitely been good because they haven't pressured me to visit lately either, and phone calls are now down to "I don't actually know when I'm calling next, do we have to fix a time?" and now they say "no, it's okay, you can call when you like".

that was another pet hate of mine - they would answer their landline and chat to whoever called at whatever time, to the extent of letting food go cold, but with me, they always wanted to fix a time!

@Lighthouse, it sounds as though you're in a similar position to me, in that you've just started the long trek out of the FOG. I have only just realised in the last six months or so that what I thought was love for my elderly, ill parent was, in fact, FOG - the same FOG that's held me in thrall all my life. I feel quite resentful that I spent the first 50 years of my life trying to please a mother for whom I'm never going to be enough. But I still find it very hard to work out whether I'm planning to do something because I want to, or because I'm worried about what my Mum and brother will think if I don't.

I'm really pleased to hear that you and your DPs are being so honest with each other. That must make a big difference, not having the whole, "I wonder if they're expecting...?" hanging over you.

What am I scared of? Phew - that's a thread in itself. This is becoming a massive drip feed, and I'm sorry, but if I was to try and write all my family issues in one post, generations would pass in the reading of it! The answer will also reveal just how wet I really am, but...

I'm scared he'll be angry with me and shout. I've been bought up never to question, never to argue, never to stand up for myself, and to avoid conflict whatever the consequence. As a result, I am totally devoid of backbone. I incurred his anger a few years ago (over the phone), and I've never been shouted at before - I've managed to avoid it all my life. To have my brother, who was my best friend when we were kids, shouting down the phone at me, so furious his voice was shaking...I was in tears, apologising for everything including some things that weren't my fault, and promising him the moon, just to make it stop.

I'e annoyed him a few times since then, but I've always managed to deflect it by sending a super grovelly text or by getting my DH to speak to him. I pay lip service to what I'm going to say next time, how I'm going to stand up to him, how I'm going to deal with it...but I know that when we start to descend into it again, I will just crumble.

So, yeah. There you go. I'm scared of him shouting. How pathetic is that?

@FuckKnuckle

yes, I went over there last night and there was a definite sense of honesty doing the rounds!

re your brother. My dad is a shouter and as a child it made me cry. Then as a teen I heard of an exercise when they asked children to sit in an "angry" chair or an "upset" chair so they could unpack their feelings in response to various scenarios. It was really good because there were times I was shouted at in the workplace and I might have cried from anger instead of showing them I was pissed off - does that make sense?

anyway, I understand that being shouted at can be shocking and quite horrific.

however, the other way to make it stop is to refuse to engage with the person doing it. okay, in a job, that's often not possible. but with your brother, another option is to walk away or put the phone down.

my dad would have continued shouting for no reason - he does this to everyone, or he did - but as older children in our 20s, my sis went almost NC and I have left their house when he starts. One time I told him I wouldn't speak to him again unless I really had to. That lasted about 2 years. since then he has learned to stop shouting.

bullies fling themselves around freely when there are no consequences. I only conversed with him again after that 2 years because there was a hospital incident where mum couldn't cope.

so I do understand how you feel. I avoid shouting in all possible situations. I will do conflict at work purely because I have to, but in my ordinary life I do not deal with anyone who brings conflict - I don't care what the blood link is.

If your brother shouts at you on the phone again and you hang up, is he near? Is he likely to turn up banging on the door? shouters do shut up when they realise no one is listening.

I feel for you.

Popping back to share that I actually said it out loud today. I told two trusted friends that I will feel nothing but relief when she goes, that I feel no affection for her at all, just compassion and pity. I do what I do to support her because of who I am, not who she is/what she is owed etc.

I'm so angry about the neglect when we were young. It's all coming back.

@picklemepopcorn

Hope they were supportive. I've told one friend, she thinks the majority feel like this but don't say it. Her parents are dead and she was very relieved when the second one went. I think for many there is a bad period, a worse period perhaps, when you're left with one.

@pickle - as Lighthouse said, I hope your friends were understanding and supportive. I completely get what you mean about feeling pity, but not affection. It does help a lot to realise that I'm not alone in feeling this way, though.

@Lighthouse - I might have cried from anger instead of showing them I was pissed off - does that make sense? GOD yes. The number of times I've cried furious tears while wishing I could communicate how I really felt!

Thankyou so much for understanding, although I'm sad for the reason that you understand so well - your father being a shouter has left a deep impression on you. And thankyou for the advice about disengaging if DB starts again, too - it's almost exactly what my DH suggested! I don't (yet) have the moral fibre to stand up to him, exactly, but I'm sure I could put the phone down - I could probably even tell him why before I did it. Small steps, I suppose! And no, he's not likely to turn up - he's a couple of hours away.

for both of you. I hope you're having good days.

Thank you both. They were very supportive. They know me well enough to realise that I wouldn't casually neglect her and that I must have good reason for my anxiety.

@picklemepopcorn yes it's good to have someone who knows your feelings in real life.

@FuckKnuckle

Yes the "which chair do I sit in" is a helpful concept. What can be scary, in personal terms rather than work terms, is how angry I can feel. I'm glad that pity is starting to take over because otherwise I'd just be furious all the time.

I'm going to say this here because I can't tell people in real life. I mentioned that dad now wants treatment for something he was diagnosed with last year, at that time he refused treatment.

Now he's saying his logic is he wants treatment "because it's got worse" - well of course it has! Anyway, it's got worse to the point that he is seriously wasting NHS time, they have to get a bunch of specialists to consult so his appointment is weeks away, understandably. It was a very simple treatment if he'd had it originally.

He's already saying "they won't know what to do and will shove me round from one person to another and how do I know they are doing their best". I saw them on Friday as said in a pp. while I didn't shout at him about this, I made it very clear that he has put the docs in a difficult position and the fact that he's already gearing up to criticise them annoys me.

I told him he was being disrespectful about people who are trying to help and he just sat there looking mournful like the egomaniac who can't believe they aren't right all the time.

Plus, talented NHS doctors have now saved him many times. There's a supreme arrogance in expecting to be immortal, I think. But even more in expecting people to bust a gut to save you when you've let a situation get worse.

Just thought I would check in as I now have proof that this actually does end. My father died last week, and in the lead up I was honestly starting to question reality, and whether or not my 'care journey' would finish. It has felt like an eternity.

Oddly annoyingly I can't say I feel the sweet relief I was anticipating. Just nothingness really.

@Fuckknuckle I am totally devoid of backbone

This really struck a chord with me. Growing up around a father who chose a second wife that didn't like me has done this to me too.

Your feelings are very common....

@Poudrenez

I wonder if relief might take a while to arrive. The sympathetic friend I spoke with said something like "I waited so long for his death and then it didn't seem to matter" but now, months later, she says freely that she is relieved.

I think most of us have a sense of not wanting to feel relief. I had a bereaved colleague who popped in late one night because she was on leave and needed something from her desk. I said "sorry for your loss" and she said " I know you say that to be kind but don't worry, I'm so glad about it. I came in late hoping not to see anyone". I think she had four years of her mum in a home, with dementia.

As I get older, I see more palpable relief. You might have a sense of not being out of the woods yet?

I mentioned upthread that a friend's mum died suddenly, we all loved her to bits. Even my parents were fond of her! I had today off to help my friend with some probate stuff. (She has a useless sibling who is no help). My friend is so sad and it got me thinking, I wonder what's worse?

Wow, wonderful people on this thread. I read the updates and feel like less of a monster every time.

@Poudre, I know exactly what you mean about beginning to wonder if you've slipped into another reality where the situation is just going to go on forever. My mother has become very ill since I started posting on here, and the nurse at the home said she could die in the next couple of weeks...but we've heard this so many times. It's cruel, to her and to us.
Being "devoid of backbone" is horrible, isn't it? It's so frustrating when you have an opinion, and so many things you'd like to say...but all you can do is either nod and smile non committally or burst into angry tears. Which make you angrier.
I think @Lighthouse may well be right, that you have to negotiate a no man's land of, "Is it really over?" And of course there's all the officialdom to deal with as well. I hope you soon find peace.

@Lighthouse, well done on being so honest with your Dad! That cannot have been easy.
I don't so much not want to feel relieved as have this deep conviction that I shouldn't. But I do know that, hard as it is to admit to myself...I will be so glad when she's gone. As for which is worse...That's a very good question.
for you all.

OMD
I have been having a lovely day off and my mother has just been on the phone being such a misery, I don't even know how to explain it.

I actually feel like crying now!

She has literally spent 45 mins on the phone moaning about stuff that she mis-remembered from 20 years ago (regarding planning permission on the place we used to live, so beyond irrelevant)

and then moaning about a TV show

and then telling me some desperately miserable story from her childhood.

I asked if she was all right and she said "yes, this is conversation, it's not miserable."

I cannot listen to this for another 20 years.

I'm going to say it out loud too. When my Mum died, I felt relief. Relief that she could't be nasty any more, that I would no longer have to call her or visit each week and most of all that I wouldn't have to pretend that I loved her. The only sadness I felt was that our relationship hadnt been different, but none for the loss of her. It's very liberating to be able to say it actually.

Sorry if that sounds brutal, I have been devastated at the loss of others - friends and family - but not her.

I'm relieved people can talk about their relief somewhere, thanks OP for starting this thread.

Yes, thank you Ophelia

today I dug out an old playlist - Tori Amos, Silent All These Years - started playing.

it seems like a good song for emerging from FOG. "Yes, I know what you think of me/you never shut up...

years go by/will I still be waiting
for somebody else who understands"

my sister's family are almost NC so she has been saying to me to reduce the calls even more, but then any call that happens will start with "OMD how dare you, you never call us anymore"....argh.

I can see why people move, far, far away.

Oh, @Lighthouse... I do feel for you. That sounds horribly familiar. When I could still talk to my mother on the phone, she used to do this too. It didn't matter what the reason for ringing was, sooner or later (usually sooner) she would drag the conversation round to family disagreements from when I was little and in which I had no part, and just go over and over the same old things that had been done, both real and imagined. I always felt utterly miserable after speaking to her. Why do they do it? And she never wanted me to have anything to do with the relatives involved, and used to give me the dissappointed voice and face if I did. It wasn't my disagreement...

Just had a listen to the Tori Amos track, btw. Good call.

@Saidtheshark - When my Mum died, I felt relief. Relief that she could't be nasty any more, that I would no longer have to call her or visit each week and most of all that I wouldn't have to pretend that I loved her. The only sadness I felt was that our relationship hadnt been different, but none for the loss of her. YES. Exactly.

I meant to add - on one of the many occasions that she was telling me she wanted to die and that every night when she went to sleep she prayed she wouldn't wake up, I gave her what has become my standard response (I know that sounds hard, but there's only so much you can say when you're being told this time after time after time...), which is, "It's hard to hear you say that, because you're my mum and I love you, but I do understand", and I realised that the part about loving her is just something I'm saying because I feel I ought to. I don't love her. I feel obligated to her and deep inside me that small child is still trying to find the right thing to say or do to win her approval, but I don't love her.