One child gets into Grammar, the other doesn't....

[NotEnoughTime]

Does anyone have any experience of one of their DC passing the 11+ and a subsequent DC not?

My oldest DS is very happy at his Grammar school. We are hoping that our younger DS will pass the 11+ too and join him there. Younger DS really wants to go there too. I think he has a very good chance of passing as his brother as he is equally bright.

However I know from my eldest son's year that many children who "should have" easily passed who didn't and vice versa. I'm worried that if he doesn't pass he will somehow feel inferior to his big brother.

For background, we are in a opt out 11+ area so every child sits the exam so it is a very big deal here. People often say things like "I bet you will be going to school with your big brother" which although kindly meant makes me and him feel more under pressure.

We are not in a position to move out of the area so that is not a option. Neither is private school.

I'm really starting to worry about this as I have tried very hard to give my boys the same opportunities in life so far and would hate my younger boy not to have the same chance in life

What also make matters worse is I really dislike the school that younger DS would have to go to if he doesn't pass the 11+ and no, it's not because it's not a Grammar-I love the non Grammar in the next town along but we are out of catchment for that.

If anyone could give me any advice then I would be very grateful.

All this stuff about auditions and not being picked for teams- people don't really think that's the same as selective education?

Commiserations are about the child's efforts and feelings. Do you not commiserate your DC's if they fail to acheive something they have tried Bert? What do you do, ignore?

I would commiserate with a DC who did n't get an aspirational place at university but that does n't mean that where they end up might not be better for them nor would I expect a particular university course to be less selective so that my DC would n't be disappointed. I might commiserate more if the decisions seemed arbitrary but again that does n't prevent the DC doing very well and being as happy if not happier somewhere else. However random the decisions are, selection does occur at all stages of education. Not being placed in an expected higher set for example. For some DCs that may be motivating, for others their resilience may be insufficient.

The main problem is when the alternative option to a selective school is poor as for the OP or when the DC is a misfit for the type of education either at the grammar school or SM.

I think the aim is to help your child feel positive towards the school they go to, whichever one it ends up being.

I can really understand though why people sometimes don't even try to get the grammar school place or selective course at uni. Sometimes not getting into the course or school you wanted can make you feel like you've lost a tenner and found a fiver. It might be ok if something better does turn up, but that doesn't always happen.

"Commiserations are about the child's efforts and feelings. Do you not commiserate your DC's if they fail to acheive something they have tried Bert? What do you do, ignore?"

You are missing the point. I'll try and explain one more time. Selective education supporters say that the 11+ is not about passing or failing- it's about deciding what is the best school for each individual child. If that is the case, why would you commiserate with a child who has been "selected" for the secondary modern school any more than you would commiserate with a child who was "selected" for the grammar school? No congratulations or commiserations needed.

I totally get you bert

I think we all dress it up as something better will come along, or it's turned out to be good after all so no worries.

I think we as parents try and put a positive spin on it though...which comes out in general rhetoric which everyone repeats until they believe it themselves! Hence the commiserations, but this school is just right for you!

What we are actually doing is commiserating is that they aren't bright enough, but then try and soften the blow.

No Bert, you are missing the point. Commiserations are a human interaction, an acknowledgement of personal effort and personal feelings. If a child does the 11+ it is in the hope of passing that test and getting into their first choice of school.

If they fail they will have feelings about it. Commiserations are a response to the child's feelings at that time. The fact that they are better suited to a different school is neither here nor there.

Of course you can chose not to commiserate and simply point out to the child that they have been selected for a different school. Which is fact, but it doesn't address the child's personal feelings regarding the result of the test.

Well I don't believe the 11 plus is about separating out the bright from the non bright. My academically bright one didn't get in, whereas his less academically brother did (& he's having no problems there).

I don't think it's great system but I don't think it's the big deal some make it out to be. I have found it similar to auditions. Didn't get an audition after ten rounds? We had a pizza. Didn't pass the eleven plus? We went out for brunch. Both got over it as quickly.

I can't make up great trauma about not passing the eleven plus because there wasn't any. Tears lasted five minutes.

We actually broke the news to ds3 ad 'do you want the good news or the bad?' (Bad being you didn't pass, good being you don't have to go to the grammar).

bert there are lots of posters on this thread telling you that failing the 11+ was not a huge issue for their DC.

That is real life experience every bit as valid as yours.

Just because it was a big issue in your family does not mean it will be in all families.

Certainly, other goals have had much higher stakes in Casa EricNorthman than their tests for secondary schools.

It might be an issue eric but you may not realise it as your children know not to let it show.

I didn't get to do the course I wanted to do at uni. My parents for years went around for years thinking all was well, in fact they wouldn't hear of such nonsense, that I might be unhappy. I knew not to make a fuss, not cry etc but it didn't mean it didn't matter.

Ds1 went to state school. Whilst clever and encouraged to sit the 11+ couldn't be persuaded to do do for love nor money. While ds2 technically not as able as ds1. In that ds2 actually has to work hard and study, whereas ds1 just has natural ability, ds2 flew through the testing and when the positions came through was clearly going to get a place at grammar.

He's yr9 now and loves it. There was never any ill feeling either way. Ds2 ,moans occasionally as the school is so far away and he rides past at least three schools to get there. But does appreciate that he is lucky to go there.

head it sounds like you had a poor relationship with your parents.

I was lucky. I had an excellent one with mine. Still do. I pay this experience forward with my own DC who know they can be honest about their feelings ( and boy are they honest!).

That said, I do think how one approaches a problem with ones DC has a huge impact on how it will ultimately play out.

So the OP can really minimise the sting of not getting into grammar school by addressing it in advance and addressing it honestly.

Posters here are saying their DC have been fine after the initial sting. I don't imagine they are all lying or deluding themselves or that their DC are actually crying secretly into their tea.

Even bert who is a stalwart of these discussions, has said many times that her DS secondary modern is a good school, that her DS is thriving and she fully expects him to get excellent GCSE grades.

Her opposition is political rather than based on personal experience if the system ruining her DCs lives.

Indeed, I'm sure that people would move if things were as bad as painted. It's not as if Kent were surrounded by a forcefield which no resident could penetrate .

Bertrand I'd find it very hard to believe that given the massive fandango you make of the 11+ on these threads that it wasn't a massive fandango in your own domestic sphere, especially since you dragged out the process by going to appeal (I understand why you did, but the effect of appeal is almost always to make things worse), so naturally your DS will feel it more keenly. There are other posters who seem to make an almost sacred deal of the thing too, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if that has a very negative effect on borderline (or even nervous but not borderline) kids. The 'good news or bad news' approach is bound to limit the damage - far healthier than years of railing against the system. Interesting that HeadoftheHive says the same dynamic that you perceive about grammars exists in comps, with top set kids being seen as a cut above.

Ds3's school offered to support an appeal. I said no because a) ds3 wasn't that fussed & wasn't that keen on the school b) it rather contradicted my 'there are plenty of schools' - which I believe & c) i don't think it's great for a child to start year 7 knowing they came bottom.

I suppose ds3 could be more bothered than he is showing but unlikely as he's not slow to come forward with other concerns. He's not one to play his cards close to his chest.

I'm the opposite as the younger child. My elder brother took the 11+ and failed so my parents didn't sit me for it even though I was near the top of the class at Primary. I ended up in a bog standard comp, completely lost interest as I found the work too easy and got badly bullied for being bright & doing my homework, so I rebelled and ended up getting just 1 O Level. I've never forgiven my parents for not letting me have the chance of a grammar education.

No I do have a good relationship with my parents. But they are Very positive people, which is no bad thing. However took the view that I should feel lucky that I'd got into a good uni to do a solid academic degree. What's not to Like?
I guess they just hoped I'd fall in love with what I was doing and all would be well. Unfortunately I didn't.

Great if the second choice works out, but it might not. Like bert I am uncomfortable at forcing these sort of issues on children at such a young age. It need not be quite so brutal.

It's the parental attitude and the woe which is brutal HeadoftheHive.

Why didn't you change course at uni? I did. It took some doing too, since the department was very fiercely against back door entry but I wrote a reasonable piece of work for them and they let me in. Surely you had a degree of control over your own destiny?

"Bertrand I'd find it very hard to believe that given the massive fandango you make of the 11+ on these threads that it wasn't a massive fandango in your own domestic sphere, especially since you dragged out the process by going to appeal (I understand why you did, but the effect of appeal is almost always to make things worse), so naturally your DS will feel it more keenly. "

Fair enough. Believe what you want. You're wrong, but nothing I say will convince selective education supporters that it is anything but a wholly wonderful thing and there is no collateral damage to individuals and to society. Because I'mallrighjackery. f

And no, my ds does not "feel it keenly". I am actually capable of being concerned about things that affect the world I live in and the world I want To live in. Not everything is about my family. Unlike the pro selection people- who just want what they think is best for their families and "sod the proles"*

*disclaimer- Blackadder quote, used for emphasis. Not intended to be taken personally- although if the cap fits.........

Bertrand it's far too easy to keep slagging me off on the grounds that I'm an I'mAllRightJack kind of person. I'm not and nothing I've said suggests that I am. It's a fairly unimaginative line tbh, and one which you have not a shred of evidence for - it's just a lazy insult.

Any comment about the elite top set comp kids being seen as better playmates?

I missed your last post Bertrand. Ironic comment though, since I actually do stuff in RL to assist with access and you.... (Pontificating on MN doesn't count).

Molio- it was you introduced the personal. All my remarks have been general, however you chose to take them. It was also you who introduced my family circumstances. I don't mind, obviously. But just as a point of information.

And no, I am not going to get into a who does what competition with you. Well done you for working to "assist with access"

Anything I happen to do I certainly don't do for congratulations Bertrand.

What a lot of nonsense - you've been meeting every grammar school parent who sees any virtue in the system with the refrain that They'reAllRightJacks. Myself included, several times. It's lazy and unimaginative and please don't credit yourself with being the only person with an interest in the world outside their own family, it's extremely arrogant.

mollo I wanted to do a more competitive course. I had no idea that you could switch courses. My parents had no idea you could either. I'd never met anybody who'd switched and we were living in a time when information was not so easily available via the Internet. I'd never met anyone who had been to uni apart from my teachers. So not realising it was an option I gritted my teeth and got on with it.

A second degree was not fundable at that time.

i think that's where I see middle class or educated parents giving their offspring such an advantage. They know the shortcuts, can find out about the appeals process, would have exams remarked etc. It works right down to the selection at 11+. I think it's wonderful that you do stuff to do with access to unis however.

HeadoftheHive I'm sorry you were unhappy with your course, it seems such a waste of what could have been a better few years. But I think it's likely that we're broadly the same age. I was at university when the internet didn't exist and my parents had no input whatever, beyond a general interest in my education and happiness. The changing course thing was completely at my own initiative and it was a real battle, admittedly - but I can be quite bloody minded when I want to be, which helped! What did you do, out of interest, and what would you have liked to have done? Could you do it now?