Belong 2 linking up with Scouting Ireland. I feel this is extremely inappropriate

[Nonpoliticalmum]

Scouting Ireland is marching with Belong 2 in Dublin Pride. Given the historical background & legal cases within Scouting Ireland I do not feel comfortable with this. Surely scouting is supposed to be non political.
Parents pay huge membership fees, surely they should be consulted.
Also they are launching a "Rainbow Award" with Belong 2 according to their fb page which has comments turned off..

@Nonpoliticalmum context is everything. If a child tells an adult they are LGBT + and their parents are not supportive that’s a safeguarding issue. That is clearly the context of the statement.

It has been standard safe guarding practice for over ten years. The change is the inclusion of trans. Children who are LGBT + are at higher risk of MH issues in particular if parents are not supportive. This may be due to religious views and in some horrific cases put their child’s life at risk.

You are clearly not considering the bigger picture. You need to step back and query the statements in the the full LGBT community context.

You still haven’t confirmed what is the governance on training for youth leaders and parental engagement. You are saying there was no engagement , how do you know? There may have been parental representation, focus groups etc. No organisation asks every member in decisions about training.

And again to preempt your usual response, no I don’t work for any of the organisations but do have capacity to read things in context without scaremongering.

You are now scaremongering with your " putting a child's life at risk".

I feel as a member & as Scouting Ireland is taking a "whole organisational" approach as they said in their post which they are implementing in local groups ALL parents who pay membership should have been consulted for feedback not just a select few.

Also it says in the sleeping arrangements post that parents will be contacted re sleeping arrangements. I will be one of the parents who does not give permission for a different sex in my childs single sex accommodation so I assume I'm a "non supportive" parent for not supporting this. I would be contacting safeguarding myself on my daughters behalf if this request was ever put upon me!!!

For reference.

@Nonpoliticalmum you really are not good at reading things and I think it’s because you are expecting something that isn’t there.

The whole organisation references is clearly acknowledging that the trained youth leaders will bring more inclusion. It doesn’t say anything about everyone doing the training but that doesn’t suit your narrative.

and again the reference to the non-support move parent is clearly the parent of the child who has disclosed LGBT+ .

So to give you an example that may help you understand, a teen boy says they don’t want to sleep in the boy tent as they are gay and feel uncomfortable they say they feel uncomfortable and want privacy.

The trained scout leader checks has he support are his parents aware he says no he is from a very religious family and would be ostracised. That is a safe guarding concern and the lead would be advised and follow the protocol around any concern.

Can you not appreciate this is the context and is nothing to do with the other children’s parents. You are not understanding that this policy is clearly following child protection law.

You are putting an inaccurate narrative which is not helpful and is misleading.

In fairness, I note that Belong To has dropped the 'I' for Intersex from LGBTQ+ in more recent use. It remains in the PDF I linked to earlier, and they still include it in their list of identities:
LGBTQ+ Identities - Belong To - LGBTQ+ Youth Ireland

Removing the I for Intersex is progress, but the continued presence of the T represents the conflation of trans, which Belong To themselves state is not a sexual orientation, with LGB - which is exactly that.

The practical effects of mixing up L, G, B and T is evident in the services Belong To offers to young people:

There is a group called 'IndividualiTy' specifically for 'young trans people'.
But there is no corresponding group specifically for young LGB people, they all include trans people.
Their group called 'The Ladybirds' is not for young lesbians - it is not even for young women, it is

'This is a group for young LBT gals and non-binary pals.'
In other words, 'gals' can be anybody at all.
Belong To's Youth Group - Belong To - LGBTQ+ Youth Ireland

I think the best route to forming an informed, objective and fact-based opinion about Belong To is to visit Homepage - Belong To - LGBTQ+ Youth Ireland and see for yourself what they do and say.

This is my interpretation of the post. As you pointed out yourself parents will be contacted re sleeping arrangements regarding trans child. So yes if a trans child wanted to share with mine this post leads me to believe Scouting Ireland will contact me for permission. I will refuse this request as I will not have the opposite sex sleeping in the same accommodation as my child. I presume I am a "non supportive" parent for not allowing my child sleep in the same accommodation as the opposite gender.

Also @Marblessolveeverything we are getting nowhere here. So I am respectfully asking you to stop replying to me & my posts. You are more than welcome to stay on this thread that I started (which is your right!) but we will not agree. So please stop contacting & attempting to engage with me!
(awaiting long winded reply from @Marblessolveeverything ). So just to check your comprehension skills please stop engaging & replying to my posts. Thank you.

Scouting Ireland used the I+ in their post yesterday.

@Nonpoliticalmum in true MN fashion did you mean to be so rude?😂

fine I will leave you to what I believe is inaccurate interpretation of communication. Which I think is going to mean your engagement with an organisation will be dismissed you need to be accurate and identify gaps in governance to secure change.

To be clear I simply responded to your posts and remained respectful even when you included multiple accusations of me being from particular organisations or having particular views on trans. That wasn’t respectful on your part.

The sorts of issues that Scouting Ireland are dealing with are also issues in schools.

Last year, based on the then interim Cass report, the UK government issused advice recommending that educators adopt a ‘cautious approach’ and should not 'proactively initiate action towards a child's social transition'.
Social transition includes using a child's new name and pronouns of choice.

The Cass report says there is no clear evidence whether social transitioning is helpful to trans children or not, but that it is not a neutral act. The report also noted that those who socially transitioned at an earlier age and/or prior to being seen at a clinic are more likely to proceed to a medical pathway of transition.

With this in mind, I am concerned by the info OP has provided (listed under Parents in the image upthread) where Scouting Ireland's position seems to facilitate using requested names/pronouns/change of documentation where possible. At the same time, while they encouage the child to speak with parents, if the child is not out or parents are unaware, then they advise scout leaders "you do not need to include parents in conversations".

So it seems they are prepared to socially transition without parental knowledge?

As far as I am aware children as young as 6 can join the scouts (as beavers).
Scouting Ireland's position on this is worrying to say the least.

In your example @Marblessolveeverything a teenage gay boy feels uncomfortable about being in the boys tent. His parents cannot be contacted as they are religious fundamentalists and are unaware of his orientation. So , presumably , gay boys as well as trans could be allocated to the girls tent. Unless there was provision for a third tent. Or even a fourth. One non binary and one gay.

I'd hate to be organising these camps. Bringing peace to the middle east would be a doddle comparatively.

@Toosweetfan these are my sentiments too. I am extremely concerned with this collaboration. My children love scouting & have gained so much however this collaboration chills me to the bone especially after reading the Cass report & subsequent follow ups.

@Abhannmor I wouldn't be a scouts leader for love nor money.
They are all volunteers & the majority are local parents of children within the groups. The volunteer leaders who run my childrens group really are the best who go over & above to ensure every child has a fun, positive, wholesome scouting experience.

The logical option a small tent with friends as stated in the Scouting Ireland information. I have agreed to leave so just clarifying my point.

Your assumption makes my argument perfectly, your automatic go to is the use girls space. The statement says with their friends, subject to parental consent. Accommodating people isn’t challenging if you start from the beginning planning inclusion. I assume that is the thinking of engagement with Belongto.

Your comment about Middle East is in very poor taste. It isn’t clever.

As @Toosweetfan said, I too am surprised to see SI seems to have a policy of facilitating social transition which Cass has said is an intervention not based on evidence. Instead it is an intervention promoted by Trans activists.
It may be well intentioned, but if there are question marks over this as an intervention, then SI should avoid it like the plague.
Having a policy of facilitating social transition ignores the red flags raised in the Cass Report. If there is a possibility that social transition is actually more harmful than watchful waiting then why would SI take that chance?
This is the problem with using activist groups as experts when really they should probably be seeking guidance based on the most up to date research. The problem in Ireland is that there doesn't seem to be any organisation providing that guidance. Perhaps SI assume this is based on the most up to date research but that really isn't good enough. Children deserve better than this, even if they think differently at the moment.

@Browniesandicecream after digging a bit deeper there appears to be a change in the directorship back in March. This statements are very interesting which makes the collaboration with Belong To all the more compelling & bizarre.

The scout movement already also partners with groups around neurodiversity and refugees in addition to LGBT groups.

The movement includes groups that take young people into their late teens, as well as young leaders and adult leaders. So the matter of sexuality is directly relevant to them.

The aim of scouting is much wider than what you stated OP. You may want the aim to be based around outdoor fun, but that's not all it is about by any means.

If you don't like it then remove your children or begin your own movement.

But the matter of sexuality is not relevant to young children. Why should my children miss out on wonderful experiences? We pay membership. This collaboration should not have happened after the Cass report findings.
Also my children are raised as gender critical so the T part rainbow award completely goes against my childrens beliefs.

Is your DD friends with a trans person in scouts @Nonpoliticalmum ?

No not yet anyways & they will always be genuinely kind if they strike up friendships with trans kids. However they will be protective of female only spaces & I will encourage them to speak with me or any leaders if they ever feel their females spaces are violated or encroached upon. Which is their rights as females.

So it’s unlikely to be an issue. It’s highly unlikely that a trans person will ask to share a tent with your DD “who is raised to be gender critical “ and if the situation did arise they would ask your permission anyway.

I just fail to see an issue with that policy. It doesn’t affect your children at all.

Sexuality is relevant to everyone. I think it’s important that even very young children know that LGBTQ+ people exist and are welcomed in the community the child is involved in.

That's not good enough for me that it may not happen. It may in the future & it's my job to equip my girls with the skills to deal with.
Yes it's important to be inclusive but not at the expense of female only spaces especially even children are in vulnerable situations such as nights away.

The problem is the collaboration with Belong 2 rainbow award which according to Scouting Irelands Facebook page is going to be implemented in local scouting groups.

And your DD’s female only space is not put under threat with that policy.

I’m struggling to understand how you feel this award will impact your own children?

We have heard nothing regarding this rainbow award from our local group.

Which probably means they aren't doing this particular badge, so not sure why you are so worked up about this.