Belong 2 linking up with Scouting Ireland. I feel this is extremely inappropriate

[Nonpoliticalmum]

Scouting Ireland is marching with Belong 2 in Dublin Pride. Given the historical background & legal cases within Scouting Ireland I do not feel comfortable with this. Surely scouting is supposed to be non political.
Parents pay huge membership fees, surely they should be consulted.
Also they are launching a "Rainbow Award" with Belong 2 according to their fb page which has comments turned off..

The scouts taking part in Pride is not a bad idea per se. The involvement of Belong To and Teni is unacceptable given what we know about these groups though.

@Abhannmor exactly. I would have assumed Scouts attended pride in the past especially with the older groups like ventures etc.. But why collaborate & march with Belong To.. Why create a Rainbow Award? They just go straight for the kids cutting out the parents as usual.

Yep, this. I agree with you, OP. I've a son moving from cubs to scouts in September.. I didn't tknow about this, I'll have to do some reading.

I agree. I have huge problems with BelongTo's involvement in achools too.

Nearly everyone wants to be accepting and not discriminate against people, that part is not a problem of course.

What is a big problem is that groups like BelongTo have an agenda. Which is fine in itself in the appropriate environment, but they are not experts in child psychology or development and they are representing one viewpoint only. Scouts, like schools, should be impartial imho. Or educate in all viewpounts at the very least.

Telling kids that their problenns could be because they're in the wrong body and they can change that (surgery, drugs)...that's BelongTo's position on trans matters.

I agree with OP, these ideas shouldn't be promoted among children. Mostly because they're not often true, not for the majority at least. Thanks to the trans movement we have a lot of very confused kids at the moment. Girls, particularly autistic girls, have been particularly badly affected.

These groups do a lot of harm. There is a place for them, but allowing them to influence young children is not a good idea. They lack balance.

Totally agree with you OP. It’s sinister and worrying.

Heartily sick of how the trans issue has taken over. Our children shouldn’t be exposed to all of this nonsense.

And as for Pride, words fail me.

Your gripe was with the reference to sexuality by Scouting Ireland.

I’m gender critical and very well-versed on the issue. But show me an organisation that isn’t infiltrated by #bekind. Do you suggest we ignore our LGB youth entirely because of the trans issue? How do you expect our volunteers to become sufficiently versed on LGB inclusion?

I expect SI have involved Belong2 because they want guidance on making the organisation more inclusive for LGB members - and yes, T members too, because whether we like it or not there are children who believe themselves to be trans. And I suspect the demand for this messaging came from the ground up - from members wanting the organisation to be more supportive given our teenage membership.

Yes Belong2 is a problematic organisation in certain areas of lobbying, but we need to be sensible and use a bit of cop on with this issue. We aren’t merging with them for God’s sake. Nobody is making your child march in pride. And believe me, with the focus on safeguarding absolutely no SI volunteer is going to start talking to your child about sexuality.

Every week is straight week. That is the way it is in a heteronormative patriarchal society. Things have improved on terms of equality, but having equal rights in law is not the sane as society being inclusive. The homophonic is hanging out of this post.

So where are they going to learn about it?

I would be wary of any involvement by BeLongTo.
BeLongTo are an organisation which is there to support the LGBTQI community through initiatives that educate people on this topic with the aim of reducing and eliminating bigotry towards the lgbtqi community.
However, while the rights of the LGB community are not affecting anyone else, it is of course very different when it comes to the T, where trans rights can clash with the rights of women and girls.
Educating children about, for example, different types of families is fine. It is no different to educating children about different cultures or about racism.
But, unfortunately, with BeLongTo, its not just about education, it's also about pushing an ideology that many parents profoundly disagree with. Not everyone believes that people have a gender identity or are born in the wrong body. BeLongTo not only believes in this, they promote the rights of those who identify as transgender, over the rights of women and girls who do not consent to participate in their beliefs.
I don't see much on the website about the rainbow award but they have a quality award system for schools which is similar to the Stonewall champion award. If the rainbow award is based on a similar model then this could have a negative effect on the rights of the girls who are involved in scouting, as the rights of a boy or girl who is transgender may trump the rights of girls to not consent to participate in a situation that they feel is a violation of their privacy and dignity.

The implication that if a parent objects to their child's involvement in this,it makes them a bigot is nothing more than an attempt to force that parent into silence. Parents should always feel they have the right to speak up on their concerns, especially if they are safeguarding concerns. In fact they should be encouraged to do so. No organisation or special groups should be exempt from this.

Maybe Google Scouting Irelands past legal history also. I think this collaboration is not going to improve my image.

Due to Belong 2 constantly advocating for the eradication of female rights I will not be sending my dc back in September & I am very upset about it as they love scouting. Sea scouts which doesn't appear to be captured judging by their social media.

This is a very controversial collaboration so it's appalling that parents haven't been polled or informed.

Looking at their Facebook page even their messaging appears to have changed in recent weeks if you have the time to look back over the year.

They learn from their parents. Parents are their most important teachers. No school or organisation has any right to cut out parents & push their opinions on children. Homeschooling is very much on the rise in the UK due to organisations going into schools with an agenda.
My dc know exactly what a single parent family or family with two mams or two dads look like as they see different family types daily & don't bat an eyelid. It is normal to them & they accept it!
However I will never ever let them give up their rights, spaces & sports as females. They will never apologise for being female. I hope like me they will lobby for trans people to have their own spaces, their own rights & their own set of rules. But they can't have ours.

This is from their trans policy which I googled. On overnights it states an option that the trans child can choose to sleep with the girls or boys if they prefer. Surely the girls or boys would need to be included in that decision as my daughters definitely wouldn't be comfortable & it should never be forced upon them under the guise of "be kind" & inclusivity.
And now they have Belong To involved who believe transwomen have equal rights to female rights.

I disagree with you about parents having an absolute right to control what and how their children learn. I believe children should be protected from harmful indoctrination, whether that is by parents or educators - neighbours of mine are creationists and flat-earthers, and I think their children have a right to learn in school that those beliefs are not factual. It's not about your rights over your children. It's about your children's right to be educated and experience the world they are going to have to function in as adults. I don't think parents should be allowed to withdraw children from sex and relationships education.

So do you think a man can magically become a woman & should be welcomed into female spaces @sprigatito ?@sprigatito@sprigatito Because I don't & my children will be never believe that. My daughters won't be eradicated due to an ideology or because they were told to "be kind".

@Nonpoliticalmum you are now conflating several different things and heading down one tiny avenue of a mile wide motorway.

The nonsense I have heard about my children's Schools would be hilarious only for how bloody dangerous it is. Pure out n out lies yet they quoted as facts on certain Social media accounts.

We have a new building for the secondary the students were asked what their opinions on toilets as were the parents.

The universal decision, despite the absolute rubbish published on so called news sites, was have an accessible toilet on each floor, a boys, a girls usual set up and another two which are unassigned own door, job done. So teenagers worked out a way to include everyone.

Parents include the absolute lowest of the low ranting homophobic, racist horrific individuals, do you really want that bile not tempered by education? Because I don't.

Homeschooling in UK is increasing due to low to no provision of SEN, significant school quality issues accompanied by an access system that means you have very large schools with little diversity of social background, which is always a disaster. Recent research shows this.

Though it doesn't stop certain elements of society spouting all sorts of nonsense. If Enoch is an example then no thanks. That's a man that really would have benefitted from an external education source.

@Marblessolveeverything that was the school in Tralee if memory serves me correctly?
You can say I'm going down whatever road you want but I'm not willing to sacrifice my female rights or my daughters for an ideology.
You mentioned "spouting nonsense". Can you elaborate? I presume you do know a woman is a biological born female & a man is a biological born male?

It seems like good fit. Belong 2 deal with young people and so do scouts. The teenage years are a time when kids start discovering their own sexuality. Our school celebrate pride anyway so would be nothing new.

I have genuinely never met a LGBTQ+ person who doesn’t celebrate pride.

Prehaps yourself and the Burke family could get together and protest about it?

No I am in Leinster. No one is after your rights, the reality is that is a tactic to inflict fear and heighten the reaction. I have stated in a lot of detail my view on the trans issue, so it has been asked and answered.

The nonsense published I saw was saying our school wouldn't have a female only space, etc etc. pure out and out lies and when parents who had seen the plans elaborated and corrected the misinformation we were told we were lying.

When we invited them to view the plans in the local library again we were lying. That they knew someone who knew someone and had confirmed with DES- lies and nonsense.

I still see nonsense on the local Facebook pages at school application time about to avoid x school because all the toilets are open season 🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️.

@Marblessolveeverything

I'd be inclined to listen to Prof Donal O'Shea on this (consultant endocrinologist working in the area of gender care).
He has gone on record warning about the dangers advocacy groups such as BelongTo present to vulnerable patients.

"Vulnerable patients are being "coached" on how to outwit a psychological evaluation in order to gain access to hormone treatment and gender-related surgery, it has been claimed.
Ireland's leading endocrinologist, Professor Donal O'Shea, has warned that he believes some advocacy groups are prepping patients to fast-track their way to gender transition - without undergoing an appropriate mental health assessment."

As I said upthread, BelongTo lack balance and objectivity. They shouldn't be in schools or scouts imho.

I have genuinely never met a LGBTQ+ person who doesn’t celebrate pride.

I've met several lesbians who don't attend anymore @mollyfolk They mostly have kids and say it's no longer a suitable environment for them.
Might depend on where you are also, though the people I'm talking about are all within Ireland.

I think bringing people in and opening conversations is better than not. Providing access to allies for LGBTQ+ young people is important.

The indoctrination fear aspect I would argue is a higher risk online and where the conversation isn't in the open.

So while every organisation has issues, Scouting Ireland included - reports 2018 and 2020, the priority is to give alliance and show representation.

I think bringing people in and opening conversations is better than not.

I would agree if it were done correctly @Marblessolveeverything.

Inviting groups that are very biased to facilitate these types of discussions is not a good move.

Another recent RTE report quoting Prof O'Shea and Dr Paul Moran ( two of the most experienced clinicians working in the area of gender care in the country)...

Dr Moran and Prof O’Shea also allege that the HSE is in thrall to the gender-affirming Model of Care promoted by transgender activists that is based around the concept of informed consent.

"It is driven by the patient," Prof O’Shea said. "They use the term ‘informed consent,’ which is the patient has informed themselves and consents to the treatment."

"That's not the informed consent model that works in medicine, that we're obliged by the Medical Council to adhere to, where we inform the patient in detail of the risks and benefits, and then make a joint decision."

Basically, according to these doctors, transgender activists (eg the BelongTo group) are promoting heathcare for adults and children that may very well not be in their best interests.

How can a child truly consent to puberty blockers?
Or a 16 year old girl to testosterone ?
On their own?

I would be keen to protect children from the influence of BelongTo.
Zealotry is dangerous.

@Toosweetfan I would respectfully disagree. I would say bringing people into an open forum helps everyone agree what is discussed with the children.

So a neutral Chair is appointed, reps from LGBT, parents, phycologist, child development expert and the groups referenced are brought together.

Everyone sets out their messages, there is open respectful discussion and consensus of the content is agreed. Not talking isn't going to stop every teen with a smart phone engaging but now there is no oversight no balance.

I accept the balance as coming from outside the organisation, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

@Toosweetfan their website clearly states under 17 can't engage in medical transition without parental support.

A 16 year old can make the medical decision to have an abortion. So while there is medical precedent the current situation is a person must be over 17.

Which given waiting lists etc means they will be 18+ before they can legally access hormones.

I would make an educated guess the risk is of young people accessing what is being claimed to be hormones and purchasing online is the bigger risk.