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Craicnet

Belong 2 linking up with Scouting Ireland. I feel this is extremely inappropriate

221 replies

Nonpoliticalmum · 13/06/2024 17:35

Scouting Ireland is marching with Belong 2 in Dublin Pride. Given the historical background & legal cases within Scouting Ireland I do not feel comfortable with this. Surely scouting is supposed to be non political.
Parents pay huge membership fees, surely they should be consulted.
Also they are launching a "Rainbow Award" with Belong 2 according to their fb page which has comments turned off..

Belong 2 linking up with Scouting Ireland. I feel this is extremely inappropriate
Belong 2 linking up with Scouting Ireland. I feel this is extremely inappropriate
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Barefootsally · 14/06/2024 10:00

Oh dear!

ConnieCounter · 14/06/2024 10:01

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 09:27

My sentiments exactly. Also as a parebt who pays membership this was not passed onto parents for their feedback. It is a controversial collaboration & one I don't want my children to be a part of.

If you have concerns about how Scouts deal with child sex abuse why are you paying for your child to be a member?

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:06

Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 09:59

Well @Nonpoliticalmum I hope you read the report more closely than the scouting information on trans children. Or the information on the badge being for leaders to support inclusion?

Are you going to acknowledge your inaccurate posting? This is the issue I have with threads, the inaccuracies and scaremongering.

I have said I will read the report and I will but I would suggest you read the website of the organisation before you continue with your inaccuracies.

Should you not be working! Where was I inaccurate? The scouting Ireland Facebook page says the Belong 2 rainbow award will be implemented in local scouting groups.

Belong 2 linking up with Scouting Ireland. I feel this is extremely inappropriate
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Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 10:08

Toosweetfan · 14/06/2024 09:55

I am trying to work my way to understanding the facts but I continue to be baffled to see how having open discussion can disimprove situations. At the very worst everyone walks away disagreeing.

The problem is people are not open to listening they are basically saying it's this way or you are actively endangering their children, that is not factual and it creates a place of fear. Fear doesn't facilitate learning. And right now everyone of any opinion needs to be in learning mode.

But you could be describing the trans advocacy groups there? They have not been open to listening. Those who disagreed with them have been shut down. Called names. Cancelled.
They believe gender affirmation is the way to go. So once a child says they're trans that should be accepted as fact and every effort made to accommodate that. No qustion of the possibility that a child is confused. Those who propose slowing down and investigating what's going on with the child are accused of conversion therapy.
I'm not talking specifically about BelongTo but in general. Trans advocacy groups have not been open to discussion. The opposite in fact. Listen to what the doctors are saying please.

I would need to see a huge change in BelongTo's position and policy regarding children (which at the moment is gender affirmation) before thinking this sort of collaboration a good idea.

Edited

@toocan't have precursors to engagement. Take for example the Good Friday Agreement. The function of the engagement is to exchange views, simply that.

Both sides would need to agree to not have precursors. This isn't unique what unfortunately is happening is people are not stepping back from their perspective to be open to listening.

This isn't endangering children this is showing children that this is how adult resolve and navigate differences.

MagpiePi · 14/06/2024 10:10

Iloveshihtzus · 13/06/2024 21:18

Hi OP, ask for this to move to Feminism to get more constructive advice.

Why is objecting to children being forced into celebrating pride a feminist issue?

Surely it is everyone’s concern when children are being encouraged to think that if they don’t conform to rigid and outdated gender stereotypes that their bodies are wrong and they need to be mutilated and pumped full of hormones? Or some of the TQ+ adjacent ideologies that insist age should be irrelevant in sexual relationships. Because that is what pride is about nowadays.

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:10

ConnieCounter · 14/06/2024 10:01

If you have concerns about how Scouts deal with child sex abuse why are you paying for your child to be a member?

I felt it was in the past & that huge measures were put in place to prevent any damage to children going forward. I also spoke extensively to the wonderful leaders in my dc's group & was given every assurance that safeguarding is priority. I cannot fault my childrens group. The leaders are absolutely wonderful & my dc have gained so much from Scouting.
However this collaboration is not something I approve of & parents were not consulted.

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Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 10:12

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:06

Should you not be working! Where was I inaccurate? The scouting Ireland Facebook page says the Belong 2 rainbow award will be implemented in local scouting groups.

Nope I am on a break thanks.

And when you read the Belongto website it clearly says what it is, I posted the link. I read that as being leaders will support and be informed any inclusivity. You are interpreting something different. So go to the website for the facts.

ConnieCounter · 14/06/2024 10:12

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:10

I felt it was in the past & that huge measures were put in place to prevent any damage to children going forward. I also spoke extensively to the wonderful leaders in my dc's group & was given every assurance that safeguarding is priority. I cannot fault my childrens group. The leaders are absolutely wonderful & my dc have gained so much from Scouting.
However this collaboration is not something I approve of & parents were not consulted.

In that case I don't understand why you mentioned it in your OP 🤷‍♀️

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:14

Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 10:08

@toocan't have precursors to engagement. Take for example the Good Friday Agreement. The function of the engagement is to exchange views, simply that.

Both sides would need to agree to not have precursors. This isn't unique what unfortunately is happening is people are not stepping back from their perspective to be open to listening.

This isn't endangering children this is showing children that this is how adult resolve and navigate differences.

Resolve & navigate differences? I think you are gaslighting here! Belong 2 advocate for child transitioning. My children will never be made to believe a boy can become a girl & use her female spaces. This is non negotiable & the only resolution here is for the child to have ite own trans space or use the boys. My children will not be compromised at the hands of ideology!

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Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 10:18

@MagpiePi where exactly are these claims in the Irish website of the organisations referenced? Because I haven't seen them and would appreciate seeing what is actually published. As I said previously I am navigating this in a fact finding approach.

I think alluding child abusers to Pride is appalling and disrespectful to the families currently out organising parades, and pitch and putt hardly wild.

Pride has significant number of family friendly and adult only events should there be any references to abuse then please notify the authorities. That isn't what Pride is about.

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:18

Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 10:12

Nope I am on a break thanks.

And when you read the Belongto website it clearly says what it is, I posted the link. I read that as being leaders will support and be informed any inclusivity. You are interpreting something different. So go to the website for the facts.

There is no information on the Scouting Ireland website though! That's my point. The only place that Scouting Ireland have referenced the Rainbow Award is on their officially Scouting Ireland Facebook page, they have turned the comments off this post (& all posts that mention lgbtq) so no parents is able to ask them to elaborate.

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Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 10:21

Well my common sense sent me to the Belongto website since it's their award? I am failing to see the challenge?

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:26

If it's an award being rolled out to local scouts groups with a "whole organisational" approach why isn't it on Scouting Ireland's website? Odd. Why were parents who as members are stakeholders not consulted on this controversial collaboration?

I would love your job! You were on your way to work 2 hours ago & now are on a nice long leisurely break? Do you work for either of these organisations by any chance?!

I certainly wouldn't be posting on mumsnet during my break about an organisation my children weren't involved in🤔But that's just me!

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MarieDeGournay · 14/06/2024 10:55

This is a good example of how adding the 'T' for transgender to LGB has caused so many problems.

Transgender is NOT, as Belong To themselves state, a sexual orientation; being lesbian, gay or bisexual is. These are two different issues, two different histories, two different sets of issues.

It's great to have a youth organisation that supports older children who may be questioning their sexual orientation, and in supporting children of all ages who have L or G parents. As a nation, we got well beyond that point years ago.

Then after years of advocacy for body positivity, especially among young people, there was now a movement messaging that you could be 'in the wrong body', you could be transgender if your body doesn't reflect the way you feel about the gender stereotypes that society ascribed to being a boy or being a girl, the the whole sugar and spice/rats and snail thing..

If being transgender meant telling a child that gender stereotyping is wrong and that they should transcend gender stereotyping and just do what they damn well want to do, whether they are a boy or a girl, fair enough.

But telling children that it's not the stereotypes that need changing, it's their bodies is unacceptable; the idea that you need to hide ['tuck' or 'bind'] or alter your otherwise healthy body, take drugs to stop your body going through puberty, or even remove healthy parts of your body, in what is euphemistically called 'top surgery' or 'bottom surgery' - now that's a different thing altogether from telling children they can live and love as they want, and that having two mammies or two daddies is grand.

Objecting to aspects of the T that you find unacceptable, unethical or just plain dangerous to children's health is not the same as objecting to LGB rights. It's not bigotry, it's not homophobia, and if it's inevitably called 'transphobia', well, so be it.

Belong To themselves say 'Trans is not a sexual orientation. Trans people can have any sexual orientation.' so why the T in LGBT? ?
It's a separate issue, and needs to be considered separately from lesbian and gay issues; it was strategically astute to attach it to an existing movement which has already achieved a level of acceptance in Irish society, but that's wearing thin.

Scouting Ireland associating with a LGB youth group, or Scouting Ireland associating with a Transgender youth group, are two different things. It would be easier to form a considered opinion if there were distinct groups, instead of a group like Belong To, which conflates the separate identities and issues into LBGTQI - they also surprisingly add 'I' for intersex, which isn't used any more because it is inaccurate, and offensive to people with disorders of sex development.

Here's an example of what Belong To have to say, judge for yourselves whether they are a good match for a scouting organisation:
Belong-To-Coming-Out-As-Trans.pdf (belongto.org)

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 11:10

@MarieDeGournay as always fantastic information, thank you. I do not feel Belong To is an appropriate collaboration with Scouting Ireland for exactly these reasons & also for the booklet you linked.
Lgb has absolutely reached a very firm level of acceptance in Ireland & is normalised. As I said I have no idea of the scouts leaders sexuality, it's not my buisness or my kids buisness. They are all equally wonderful.

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Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 11:17

Also Scouting Ireland which is a youth movement already has a very detailed lgb & trans policy in place.
Why does it need another youth movement like Belong 2 to come on board to reaffirm policies already in place?! It doesn't sit right with me.

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Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 11:26

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 10:26

If it's an award being rolled out to local scouts groups with a "whole organisational" approach why isn't it on Scouting Ireland's website? Odd. Why were parents who as members are stakeholders not consulted on this controversial collaboration?

I would love your job! You were on your way to work 2 hours ago & now are on a nice long leisurely break? Do you work for either of these organisations by any chance?!

I certainly wouldn't be posting on mumsnet during my break about an organisation my children weren't involved in🤔But that's just me!

The award is a Belongto award hence it is on their website . You probably wouldn’t love my job as it involves fact finding and given expert opinion. Not that it is any of your business but today I am sitting on an interview panel for a state agency giving my expert opinion on qualifications. So there is sitting around. I somehow fail to see how I spend my time is any of your business?

Again stop with the underlying accusations, I hardly work for an organisation of I have to go search for the information. And if someone from the organisation was supporting engagement why on earth would that be an issue.

So for the third time will you confirm that your statements were inaccurate?

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 11:45

Well maybe try reading the Cass report, have a deep dig into Belong 2 & read @MarieDeGournay informative post before you try peddle your "expert opinions" on here! Your opinion is anything but expert on this matter & you clearly come accross as very uninformed!

If you had been following these issues closely you would have read the Cass Report!

No my statements were not inaccurate. Scouting Ireland has not informed members of the Rainbow Award either through their website or via email. As a parent & member I am a stakeholder who should be informed of ANY collaboration with any outside organisation. This information regarding the Rainbow Award is only on the Scouting Ireland Facebook page & on Belong 2s. Social media is not an acceptable form of platforming this & as a parent I was not consulted. Facts.

Give me an example of misinformation!

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Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 11:54

Can't edit, just for fact checking The Rainbow Award is on Belong 2s website but NOT on Scouting Irelands only on S.Is Facebook page. Not good enough. Many parents aren't on Facebook.

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Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 12:11

i have clearly stated my experience to date, given your inability to understand the award is a belong to not a scout award i would suggest not throwing stones in glasshouses.

I never ever said I was an expert in this area. I am employed as a sector subject matter expert , again with the inaccuracies.

A further example is the rant about the sleeping arrangements. Which clearly stated parental consent was required.

If you have an issue with an organisation you are a member of I would suggest you consider how you engage because your current approach won’t be successful.

You need to clarify what the organisation commits to regarding communication. And today a lot of organisations use SM that is considered perfectly acceptable and know of no law that requires alternative communication methods.

Again you appear to be aggressive and disrespectful of other’s opinions which in my case is still open and respectfully asking for engagement. I fail to see what you would lose by doing that and the sad reality is your methodology will simply alienate people.

Others are engaging respectfully but you appear to attack with paranoia people who hold an opposing opinions or simply an open view, while attacking with accusations of working for “them”! That isn’t constructive nor will it progress your concerns.

Iloveshihtzus · 14/06/2024 12:14

WappityWabbit · 13/06/2024 21:27

@Iloveshihtzus

This belongs in Craicnet not the feminism board as it's specifically an Irish issue!

Hi, I am Irish, live in Ireland and post here regularly (see Gender Critical in Ireland). I suggested moving in order to get advice - the first few posters were the usual be kind brigade and I thought the OP would appreciate the Feminism board realism.

I see the OP does not want that, this is more about awareness.

Marblessolveeverything · 14/06/2024 13:14

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 12:07

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/craicnet/4633511-belong-to-in-school

Have a read of this too after you've read the Cass Report & give me your "expert opinion"!

That was rude and disrespectful. It is clearly your style which is very disappointing. If you’re continuing this aggression and disrespecting it isn’t hard to identify why you are feeling unheard as nobody has time for inaccurate rants.

I am not your student to have homework assigned. And for the fourth time are you going to clarify your inaccurate statements?

Nonpoliticalmum · 14/06/2024 13:48

As I asked you 4 or 5 times please point out my inaccuracies?

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Toosweetfan · 14/06/2024 17:01

@Marblessolveeverything
https://www.newstalk.com/news/activists-brain-washing-hse-management-on-gender-recognition-bill-1438035

This again outlines the clash between BelongTo policy and mainstream medical opinion in Ireland.
It seems pretty clear that their coaching - at every level - is posing a danger to kids. Theirs is not a moderate view. Neither is it an evidenced based view.

Gender Recognition Bill: Activists 'brain-washing' HSE management

'The activists have it that we're right-wing restrictive, and if the politicians speak they're cancelled'

https://www.newstalk.com/news/activists-brain-washing-hse-management-on-gender-recognition-bill-1438035