Gender critical in Ireland

[Muppetryofthepenis]

Just wondering if there are many others out there. Was reading a political pamphlet and it was going on about self ID and how important it is. I just don't agree and think it's so damaging to change the definition of what a woman is. And the definition of a man too, I guess. Sex based rights are under threat in Ireland. Fed up with all the nonsense. Wondering what other Irish mumsnetters think.

I think a lot of Irish people don't think the issue affects them, but in my field I'm seeing increasing numbers of young people identifying as trans.

I agree with you OP.

I Agree Op. Absolute fucking nonsense.

Yes unfortunately the Legislation on self ID is a shocker-
*gender / sex = aren’t they the same !
*sure whatever you think yourself = let’s all be kind and ignore the professional advice on this .
Unfortunately can’t see any politician etc raising their head above the parapet as both sides of the political sides are trying to out woke each other ( ironically I think that in Ireland the right AKA FG is generally more socially liberal than the left- SF- so the left have go above and beyond to play to their target audience in RoI) while at the same time think the majority of the Irish electorate have no idea of what was actually legislated for and the people who actually write the laws are totally lost. My expectation is that there is going to be a costly scandal in 20/30 years time when the state is sued for financing young people to take puberty blockers without safeguards. Wish someone would ring joe Duffy and get a national conversation going. For once I take comfort in the right wing U.K. media as it keeps the complexities of this issue alive. On an aside those terf cutter stickers were worrying as shows the extremists are here .

@MargaretBall this has been on Joe Duffy twice this week. A group of GC women were denied entry to the NWCI AGM. You couldn't make it up.
Well done to them. Excellent measured discussion but of course the response was calls of Trasnphobia etc .

The only politician I've seen make and comment in support of women has been senator Sharon Keoghan and she has been vilified.

@Muppetryofthepenis what party was the pamphlet from?

The word woman is currently being removed from maternity legislation and also legislation on period products. What is depressing are the women cheering this on as progress .

@knottsberryfarm it was a labour pamphlet. I like labour but I can't get behind this. Without giving too much info, I work with young people and and am already seeing the social contagion.

@Muppetryofthepenis that's not surprising by the Labour Party since the legislation came in on their watch. I have voted for them in the past too. The Social Democrats are swallowed up too.

Hard to know who I would vote for.

I just don't know. It's a real problem. I honestly think a lot of Irish people are thinking if they pretend the issue isn't there, it'll just go away. Sadly, I don't think it's going to happen. I feel for the small number of people who experience gender dysphoria, although I don't think surgery is the answer. But I think a lot of young people who don't have dysphoria at all are being swept up in this wave.

I agree and I find myself increasingly worried about how this will all end. Not even sure how to go about voicing my concerns without being vilified. Have two teenage daughters and there seems to be a number of trans identifying girls in both their friend groups. The prevalence of trans identifying autistic girls is something that really concerns me. The lack of rational discussion and the dismissal of genuine concern from women is also a worrying trend. I find it unnerving that women are embracing this as progress and I've given up on NWCI completely at this point.

@knottsberryfarm, no idea who I'd vote for either as my usual #1 seems to have gone too far down the road.

I agree

Was just asking about it on the specific Feminism topic . Was nervous of raising it here.

I also agree with you, OP, and am very worried. There's a desperation in political and other quarters to be jumping on the latest "liberal" fab, so as not to be seen as regressive and "old Ireland". This has been great in some ways, e.g. the same-sex marriage referendum and repealing the 8th, but has led to a complete lack of critical thinking and blind acceptance in other areas.

I'm not in Ireland so i I heard through the lovely prism of Twitter but there are a lot of people getting hot and bothered over yesterday's RTÉ Liveline discussion on this : terrible slurs on a fragile community ; right wing, let's invoke the mantras etc etc. It cheered me to see responses which said "hang on a minute...."

Absolutely not surprised. As a PP said, the Irish often fall over themselves to be seen as progressive, at any cost.

I also hate the attitude of 'its not harming anyone so keep your nose out', when it is. I recently watched something about a female to male detransitionioner and how the surgery had been akin to butchery. The ease with which this person transitioned in the first place, and how they were encouraged to do so, was chilling.

I asked my Irish husband how he would feel if our daughter went through all that in the future. His response? 'Well, if it makes her happy!' I honestly wanted to cry. He said 'what is it to you?'. I said that the agenda to blame every developmentally normal identity crisis that growing children experience on gender ideology will have long term and devastating consequences. Also, the emerging trend of neurodiverse young people (especially girls) being led down this path by the gender Pied Piper is similarly terrifying.

He often nods along when I speak, but I know that he thinks 'live and let live'. And, before anyone says anything, people are free to live their lives as they choose. However I do not like how people are being cancelled for stating basic biological facts, and how women' safe spaces are potentially being threatened.

My husband also makes statements to imply that I am some kind of a prude for not wanting to share a bathroom with a biological man. That all of these issues are the 'new gay' and I should just get on board with it or else I'm a bigoted old dinosaur.

The truth is, he doesn't want to think it through. He agrees that you cannot change biological sex, and that a man cannot be pregnant, but doesn't see the harm in pretending that they can. Basically, in his heart he knows the truth but is just playing along in order to preserve his progressive, left wing view of himself.

My heart actually breaks for people suffering with gender dysphoria. I cannot imagine how terrifying and alienating it must be, but I think that neutral therapy is what is needed, instead if the sledgehammer approach being propagated.

I am delighted to see the focus this is now getting, thanks in part to Joe Duffy (of all people!) and his Liveline programme which has been fair and measured.

The issue is that we Irish bend over backwards to demonstrate how liberal we are and how the shackles of the Catholic Church have been cast off.

It's a very contentious issue and I'm deeply, deeply in awe of the women who are speaking out. I wish I had the courage of my convictions and could do it, but I am a coward. My mind has been made up on this issue for, I would think, around seven years and I have not changed it. I desperately wish I could get on board with the changes, but I can't.

I've been listening to liveline, reading about it on twitter and one thing that strikes me is the shallowness and aggression of the pro trans perspective.

I reserve special contempt for the women ringing liveline to gaslight women into ignoring their concerns. Men, not surprised. They don't care (apart from some exceptions) but women?

It very much is head in the sand and sneak the changes in through the back door sort of stuff.I'm GC no idea if many of my friends are, I dare not mention my views. Like PP I feel extremely sorry for people with genuine dysphasia. I have emailed multiple TDs on issues around this and mostly radio silence from them.

its very much seen the new gay. Self ID was brought in by the back door along with marriage equality.

Politicians are determined to out woke each other

Sadly my liberal middle aged friends believe I’m a bigot & transphobic for not wanting to share a dressing room or toilet with a fully intact make even if he is wearing lipstick. Why am I even thinking about a Trans Womens genitals. Am I a pervert?

oh & ‘intersex’, apparently it’s virtually impossible to determine a persons sex. & born in the wrong body…& trans children will commit suicide…trans people most oppressed ever, murdered every day…yada yada.

IMO the NWCI were never much good when it came to lobbying for improvements for working class women trying to work and manage child care. They turned their back on women who chose or for financial reasons were not in paid employment too.

The addition of the multiple DSD medical conditions had an inevitability. Lets ignore the fact that the Maternity hospitals do the heal stick test to check for genitic markers. And the medical profession no longer use the term as they know that each variation is sex specific.

So in 2015 the government passed legislation which had a concept of females living in a gender which males do not normally live in. However a male can decide to not live in the male gender any more but rather live in the female gender and get a GRC.

Funny enough when a female became a legal male one of the consequences is that the female sex specific legislation no longer apply so eg 2018 abortion act is woman only. With a specific exception when the female commits specific sex offences.

Anyway the politicians get together and decide that women bleeders should have access to free bleeder products. Progressive Ireland.

On twitter i seen an "I am a feminist" using misogynist terms, rattling on about TWAW and she believed in equality for abortion.
Funny how she was not brave enough to say that TMAM and that men should have the right to choose, she made sure carefully word that tweet.

No concern that the State was housing males in the Women's Prison. Sure it's only 3 males out of about 400 GRC legal females.
Not a peep about the female employees being expected to strip search an male. Or that the other women prisoners are obliged to provide companionship to avoid the prison from committing acts of torture.

I am sure the 8th will also be all fine with drunk blokes bullying their way into the womens toilets in pubs and clubs.

Agree with you. Self ID is not what's important to me. Im irish and id be very careful what i said online (with my name). I was hounded off a book club for just sayiing "sounds interesting" about a book about surgical realignment and the wisdom of it a few of uscwere trying to have a discussion about the reasons girls would reject femininity and how it should be ok to be a non traditionally feminine girl. We were shut down with such force, and self righteousness. Scary.

Ah the book club, the womens networking book club for women in science condemned a book about how the standard design based around males (never pregnant) because it failed to include the bepenised people.

It just go to show how twisted the massage has become, from asking to be treated the same when doing the same job to focused on a false claim that women are identical to bepenised people. Women will always be at a disadvantage in financila terms as women are the sex that spends the better part of a year growing the future units of production.

I have spoken about it to other Mothers, most think its bullshit. Obviously they word it less brutally. They don't view it as dangerous though and the few that accept it are accepting children that they already knew and liked. Harmless preteen Liam is now harmless teen Mary. It's a poor combination of prudishness and a lack of foresight. Teen Mary will end up either being fucked up with dugs/surgery and be a non-man r a fully grown fully functioning Male in female spaces. Vice versa applies also.

Dublin Pride have dropped RTE as sponsors.....the Journal is not taking comments.

There’s a Reddit thread on the Pride dropping RTE thing.

A few months ago the comments would’ve been predictable, but this time there’s multiple people pointing out the flaws in the ideology.