Unvaccinated

[Ineke]

Does anyone else feel frustrated that so many people are waiting for urgent hospital treatment such as cancer and heart surgery, but their slots are being cancelled because hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated Covid patients. Many of whom beg to be vaccinated when they reach Intensive Care but by then of course it’s too late. I am beginning to feel that if you are anti Vaxer, then you should not expect a hospital bed if and when you get ill. If you refuse a vaccine, then sign something to say that you will refuse treatment if needed. I feel anguish for those people whose cancer treatment has been postponed because of selfish people too proud to be vaccinated.
The other frustration I have is that now positive Lateral flows don’t need to be confirmed with a PCR, so track and trace is not in place, I would imagine that many of those asymptomatic people with positive lateral Flows will just carry on as normal and go about those daily businesses , and not self isolate, perhaps they will keep away from their family and friends, but will not stay indoors for seven days if they feel ok and don’t have to report their status to anyone. How many people send in their results, negative/positive after each test that they take.. I must admit, that I only send in one out of three but we should send in the result each time. So far, I haven’t caught this virus, but am expecting to sooner or later with Omicron.

And likewise people who smoke cigarettes, drink alchol excessively, are massively overweight or cycle without a helmet shouldn't expect a bed either??

This is what hospitals are for. To treat sick people.

YANBU
I think it is difficult to ask the medical profession not to treat people though.
Instead make their lives difficult. No fun allowed for unvaccinated- no pub, restaurants, cinema, sports matches etc. Basically you can go to supermarkets, medical settings and work. But not work if you work with vulnerable people or their families. So no care, healthcare, schools etc.
Those very few people with a true medical exemption have it on their Covid pass like a vaccine.

Must be at least 2 minutes since we last had a thread like this

Perhaps OP, you would consider signing something to say that if in a year or two's time, the vaccine was proved to have caused health problems, that you are happy to be denied treatment to try and help you? Is that fair?

@poppypetal

Perhaps OP, you would consider signing something to say that if in a year or two's time, the vaccine was proved to have caused health problems, that you are happy to be denied treatment to try and help you? Is that fair?

What an odd thing to write. If scientists hadn’t developed and people hadn’t taken the vaccine we’d have been locked down for two years, our economy unrecoverable, we’d habe no health care system because no one would be paying taxes and a large percentage of our population would have died, the Spanish flu took twenty million people

The only reason treatment will be available in the future is becayse of the people who stood up and did their part by taking the vaccine when they medically could.

No odder than what the OP requested of the unvaccinated Bluntness

@poppypetal

No odder than what the OP requested of the unvaccinated Bluntness

Of course it is. One is prolonging the pandemic, the other is mitigating it. Thr only reason the unvaccinated can even get treatment is becayse everyone stepped up and got a vaccine.

@Ineke not returning to your thread? Shocked🙄

What an odd thing to write. If scientists hadn’t developed and people hadn’t taken the vaccine we’d have been locked down for two years, our economy unrecoverable, we’d habe no health care system because no one would be paying taxes and a large percentage of our population would have died, the Spanish flu took twenty million people

This is got to be the most overdramatic load of nonsense I've ever read in my life @Bluntness! Maybe you should go in for writing novels? Spanish flu took twenty million worldwide, not just in the UK - you do realise that?

Yes I’m fully aware. And it’s not over dramatic, factually it’s correct.

The Spanish Flu killed between 20 and 50 million people worldwide. There was no vaccine against it.

Covid-19 has killed approximately 5.5 million people worldwide. There is a vaccine against it. Coincidence? I think not.

Being vaccinated if you can is the responsible thing to do. Wilfully making the opposite choice without medical reason - well, fill in the blank.

It's not though. Vaccines have done a great job in cutting hospitilisations and deaths in the elderly and vulnerable which I'm grateful for, but I think you're overstating things just a bit. It's not really very likely that 'a large percentage of our population would have died' without them, is it? To me a large percentage would have to be over 50% at the very least which is nowhere near the figures we've seen, even before vaccines were available. If you look at areas of the world that have very low vaccination rates not one of them has experienced the absolute apocalypse you outlined earlier and let's hope they never do.

Case Fatality rate for the Spanish Flu was a bit over 2.5% and it was most deadly to the young. Case Fatality rate for COVID changes from variant to variant but it higher than that of seasonal flu by a considerable margin. It targets older people for the most part, though Omicron seems to be breaking that pattern.

You say a large % would be 50%. Looking at what the Spanish Flu did at 2.5% maybe you want to evaluate your definition of large in this context. The COVID death toll will be bad as it is and would absolutely have been worse without the vaccine. Getting vaccinated is a simple thing the vast, vast majority of people can do to protect themselves and others. People who choose not to take that step without a sound medical reason are making the pandemic last longer, creating more reservoir for new variants and infecting others at a higher rate than those who are vaccinated. It's not a moral or responsible choice.

What about those whose cancer was caused by smoking or drinking? Where do they rank against the non vaccinated? (For clarity I don’t think anyone should be denied medical treatment).

@pointythings

Case Fatality rate for the Spanish Flu was a bit over 2.5% and it was most deadly to the young. Case Fatality rate for COVID changes from variant to variant but it higher than that of seasonal flu by a considerable margin. It targets older people for the most part, though Omicron seems to be breaking that pattern.

You say a large % would be 50%. Looking at what the Spanish Flu did at 2.5% maybe you want to evaluate your definition of large in this context. The COVID death toll will be bad as it is and would absolutely have been worse without the vaccine. Getting vaccinated is a simple thing the vast, vast majority of people can do to protect themselves and others. People who choose not to take that step without a sound medical reason are making the pandemic last longer, creating more reservoir for new variants and infecting others at a higher rate than those who are vaccinated. It's not a moral or responsible choice.

But persuading the 5-10% hesitant people to get jabbed won't change much, as we do not live in isolation. More effort should be put into vaccinating lower-income countries instead of giving out 3rd or 4th doses to healthy 20 or 30 year olds.

More effort should be put into vaccinating lower-income countries instead of giving out 3rd or 4th doses to healthy 20 or 30 year olds.

Or we could, I dunno, do both? This isn't a zero sum game. It isn't just about the healthy 20 or 30 year olds, it's about the people around them - like my immunocompromised next door neighbour, for whom the vaccine will always be less effective than for people who haven't been through chemo. I'm tired of the term 'vaccine hesitant' - it's pussyfooting around. It's people refusing to learn how vaccines work, refusing to learn how research works, refusing to understand statistics, refusing to understand the scientific consensus on COVID, which is not 50/50 for and against. 'I don't want to' is not a valid reason to do your part and it makes your moral compass less true.

@pointythings

More effort should be put into vaccinating lower-income countries instead of giving out 3rd or 4th doses to healthy 20 or 30 year olds.

Or we could, I dunno, do both? This isn't a zero sum game. It isn't just about the healthy 20 or 30 year olds, it's about the people around them - like my immunocompromised next door neighbour, for whom the vaccine will always be less effective than for people who haven't been through chemo. I'm tired of the term 'vaccine hesitant' - it's pussyfooting around. It's people refusing to learn how vaccines work, refusing to learn how research works, refusing to understand statistics, refusing to understand the scientific consensus on COVID, which is not 50/50 for and against. 'I don't want to' is not a valid reason to do your part and it makes your moral compass less true.

'Or we could, I dunno, do both? This isn't a zero sum game'

No we cannot and WHO has clearly said why : time.com/6089974/who-moratorium-covid-19-vaccine-boosters/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=sfmc&utm_campaign=newsletter+brief+default+ac&utm_content=+++20210813+++body&et_rid=31837768

I'm not going to comment on your 'moral compass' argument when you clearly are happy to force people to get vaccinated against their will. 'I don't want to' is fair argument. I don't agree with abortion, but I don't go around telling women that decide to terminate pregnancy that they don't have 'moral compass'.

I don't agree with forced vaccination either (projection, much?). I do agree with persuading people by restricting their access to the things that make life fun. So you get food, healthcare and the basics of life and that's it. Simply because there is no sound reason not to get the vaccine unless you have had medical issues. And if you want to work in health or care, you get vaccinated or you go and work somewhere else.

The comparison with abortion is utterly spurious, by the way - unless you're one of those who thinks a fertilised ovum has equal weight in terms of life with a grown woman.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Oh great, another one of these threads.

sigh , they are so tedious after a while arent they ?

Anecdotal I know, but my daughter is a Charge Nurse at a 600 bed 30 ICU bed hospital in America. They are at full capacity, and 80% of their covid ICU patients are unvaccinated.

@chaosrabbitland

No one's forcing you to read it.

@pointythings - I agree.

@pointythings
'persuading people by restricting their access to the things that make life fun' sounds like forcing to me.
And the abortion argument is actually very relevant - What about 'My body my choice'? It seems that people like you only use that phrase when it suits them.
Vaccines carry (minimal) risk of severe side effects, so people should be able to make the choice if they want it or not.

PurpleDaisies

It won’t happen. It would be inhumane to enforce this. You think any doctor is going to send a sick patient home to die because they made a bad decision? Which other poor decisions will be punished with exclusion from hospital?“

You’re an A&E consultant. There’s space on ICU for one person. They both need it now. There’s no time to transport to another unit.
One is an adult, unvaccinated (through choice, not medical necessity) person with Covid in need of ventilation or transfusion. The other is a 12 year old, previously fit and well hit and run victim. They both present at the same time.
So. Choose.
This isn’t hypothetical. These decisions will have to be made on a regular basis.
I know which I would choose.
You?

Definitely refuse them treatment. Along with the overweight, drinkers , smokers, druggies, dangerous drivers, people doing extreme sports by choice which results in an injury.

I know which I would choose.

It’s done solely on the basis of clinical need. That’s it. Vaccination status doesn’t come into it.