Unvaccinated

[Ineke]

Does anyone else feel frustrated that so many people are waiting for urgent hospital treatment such as cancer and heart surgery, but their slots are being cancelled because hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated Covid patients. Many of whom beg to be vaccinated when they reach Intensive Care but by then of course it’s too late. I am beginning to feel that if you are anti Vaxer, then you should not expect a hospital bed if and when you get ill. If you refuse a vaccine, then sign something to say that you will refuse treatment if needed. I feel anguish for those people whose cancer treatment has been postponed because of selfish people too proud to be vaccinated.
The other frustration I have is that now positive Lateral flows don’t need to be confirmed with a PCR, so track and trace is not in place, I would imagine that many of those asymptomatic people with positive lateral Flows will just carry on as normal and go about those daily businesses , and not self isolate, perhaps they will keep away from their family and friends, but will not stay indoors for seven days if they feel ok and don’t have to report their status to anyone. How many people send in their results, negative/positive after each test that they take.. I must admit, that I only send in one out of three but we should send in the result each time. So far, I haven’t caught this virus, but am expecting to sooner or later with Omicron.

@Pickledlipstick

Definitely refuse them treatment. Along with the overweight, drinkers , smokers, druggies, dangerous drivers, people doing extreme sports by choice which results in an injury.

In that case all these people should also exempt from paying their national insurance contributions. Because that's what we all pay from our wages to fund our NHS treatment. Have a word with yourself.

Not sure where you are getting your figures from. Last i read the majority of people in hospital were vaccinated?

What I don’t understand is as a fit and healthy 30 something pre vaccines no one was expecting me to be hospitalised with covid. All of a sudden people are acting like it’s inevitable an equivalent unvaxxed person will end up in ICU. (I am actually vaccinated but regret it due to resulting health issues).

PurpleDaisies

I know which I would choose.

It’s done solely on the basis of clinical need. That’s it. Vaccination status doesn’t come into it.“

Historically (ie pre-December 2020), yes, you’re absolutely right.

It’s very different now. You have two equally needy patients, different reasons, one bed. Which do you choose?

Not fictitious, daily decisions. What would you do?

It’s very different now. You have two equally needy patients, different reasons, one bed. Which do you choose?

Whichever patient needs it most or has the greatest chance of survival if there genuinely is nothing to choose between them and the other will die.
That decision is never and would never be made on the basis of who is more “worthy” of the bed.

@MrsSkylerWhite Same question to you but vaccinated adult with covid vs child hit and run victim?

I've had the vaccine. Doesn't mean I want to deny treatment to anyone for any reason. By your logic, smokers and obese people should just be left to die too? What about drink drivers? And then....what about any people the government disapproves of? Maybe they could go....I dunno...to some camps to avoid them spreading their ideas? Just work camps of course. Work to fix their wrong think. All still good with you?

Would have to look at the circumstances, Fashionista1995.

As a parent, my instinct is clearly child. Rationally though, if the vaccinated person was a parent with dependents, they would have to take priority.

That’s my point though, I suppose. Doctors are being put - or will very soon be put if hospitalisations continue to rise - in nigh on impossible situations.

Many of these could be avoided r if people used their common sense, read the data and were vaccinated.

@MrsSkylerWhite wow sounds like you’re saying the life of a parent is more important than the life of someone without kids. I don’t think the number of children someone has should be a factor in determining priority for healthcare.

I think the government’s spin doctors have done a marvellous job again though. Get everyone to blame the unvaccinated instead of the government for underfunding and mis managing the nhs for a decade.

Much as I have sympathy with the frustration with the unvaccinated I fear it’s a distraction from the scandal that is the state of the NHS, we came to this pandemic with a health service working beyond capacity, if it wasn’t for the thousands of hours that health care staff routinely work for free the NHS would collapse. We have something like 20k fewer beds than 10 years ago and a larger population, we have well over 100k vacancies across the NHS and one of the worst doctor:population ratios in the developed world. The government want us to focus on unvaccinated rather than their mismanagement of our health service.

Fashionista1995

@MrsSkylerWhite wow sounds like you’re saying the life of a parent is more important than the life of someone without kids. I don’t think the number of children someone has should be a factor in determining priority for healthcare.

I think the government’s spin doctors have done a marvellous job again though. Get everyone to blame the unvaccinated instead of the government for underfunding and mis managing the nhs for a decade.“

No, not at all. Dependents can be elderly parents or incapacitated partners.

I was clumsy in what I said because we were talking about children vs. adult patients. Apologies.

I agree with you. The NHS was in dire straits pre-Covid.

Unvaccinated (unnecessary) patients certainly aren’t helping, though, are they?

Unvaccinated (unnecessary) patients certainly aren’t helping, though, are they?

of course not.
Neither are any of the other patients who bring their own illness on themselves.

That’s part of being a doctor though. You leave your judgement out of medical decisions.

I think then the choice would be
Either specific covid hospitals.
Or specific beds only for covid or operations etc.
So once the covid beds are full the operations still go ahead. But then the restrictions come on starting with the unvaccinated.

In some ways obesity and anorexia are both 'contagious'
And re smoking several people i know have died from it. And there are more of those i know with cancer who smoked than non smokers. My relative did probably pay a lot of tax as smoked.extremely heavily however there is no way that is covered all their treatment.
Under 80yo. But heart attack and stent. I think 4-5 stays in hospital some of up to 5 days. Loads of antibiotics. Meds for copd. And the other smoker well their funeral recently they had a stroke 10+ years ago in their 50s and needed home care before they died at under 70. But i do appreciate that a lot of the people that were smoking then gained a lot of weight. Our population has gone up hugely soemthing like 20m where are the new hospitals?

I don't think a child and adult would be in competition for the same ITU bed. Presumably, the child would go to a paediatric ITU.

Or got to a specialist trauma centre. I didn't think Covid positive patients were put on "clean" wards, and non Covid patients put on Covid wards.

@MrsSkylerWhite

Unvaccinated (unnecessary) patients certainly aren’t helping, though, are they?

You’re possibly correct but chances are I’d be less of a burden on the nhs right now if I hadn’t had the vaccine so maybe I’m biased against it being forced on people.

PurpleDaisies

Unvaccinated (unnecessary) patients certainly aren’t helping, though, are they?

of course not.
Neither are any of the other patients who bring their own illness on themselves.

That’s part of being a doctor though. You leave your judgement out of medical decisions.“

Smiling to myself here because I agree with you about much of what you say.

We are sadly reaching the point though (UK) where these exact decisions will have to be made.

A dear friend is one of those doctors. She never thought she would have to make those decisions and is already in emotional turmoil at the prospect.

Unvaccinated 30 year old statistically has a smaller chance to end up in ICU BECAUSE OF (not with) Covid than vaccinated 80 year old or obese 60 year old.

Someone's been reading too much of the Daily Mail... 😚

I do see where you are coming from OP and I don't think it's comparable to saying things like "smokers shouldn't get a bed for lung cancer" etc. The current healthcare solution for Covid is the vaccine. If you refuse that solution and contract Covid and require a bed, you should be less of a priority than someone with another condition as you chose not to take the medical offering for Covid. You can't then expect to take scarce medical resources ahead of others - you already refused the treatment by refusing the vaccine. Science provides a way to reduce illness from Covid. You can't say - I don't like that science, I'll take the other option (also derived from science) of hospital treatment. So I do see your point. In the event of a shortage of beds, for me the unvaccinated by choice person is a lower priority than anyone else. They refused the solution.

@user123974397375, The abortion argument is not relevant here. Whether or not you have a termination is a personal choice and will not impact on the health of the society in which you live. Whether or not you choose to be vaccinated will have an impact on the drive and progression of this pandemic, on the health of those you live with and the society/community of which you are a part of.
@MrsSkylerWhite, I am sure that there are such horrendous choices, remember Italy in March 2020, before vaccines. But in your example, if it was one or the other, yes, I know who I would want treated.
What I am concerned about is the huge waiting list of routine and not so routine operations mounting up, people whose lives are on hold, and who are in pain, simply because the beds are being filled with Covid patients, most of whom could have been vaccinated but chose(not for medical reasons) not to do so.
France now seems to be intent on making life for the anti vaxxers as marginalised as they can, I can’t argue with that.

Reading the surveillance report data, it does not support the claim that the majority of people in hospital are unvaccinated. Its interesting that the government keep giving this 90% statistic because I can't work out where it is coming from. I have done some reading around it and source data doesn't appear to have been given for the claim. One explanation that has been offered by someone who used to work for the office of national statistics is that they are looking only at patients on one type of treatment. Has anyone found the data that supports it? Would be really interested as I feel like those choosing not to have the vaccine are being continually beaten by government soundbites or anecdotes from people working in one hospital without people actually looking at the data.

@Herald44 I think many ofthe 90% stats refer to ECMO.
When BJ reported it I believe he was referring to Doctors in certain hospitals reporting it.
Last time I looked at ICNARC it was 48% unvaccinated in ICU but I think I read somewhere this has risen

Does anyone else feel frustrated that so many people are waiting for urgent hospital treatment such as cancer and heart surgery, but their slots are being cancelled because hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated Covid patients

I think it would depend on whether these people made a choice i didn't agree with that meant they needed urgent treatment for cancer or heart surgery.

I mean, if we are going down that path, then we should apply the same logic to all those needing hospital treatment, shouldn't we?

(For the record, no i don't think we should be doing that, including for non vaccinated people)

do see where you are coming from OP and I don't think it's comparable to saying things like "smokers shouldn't get a bed for lung cancer" etc. The current healthcare solution for Covid is the vaccine. If you refuse that solution and contract Covid and require a bed, you should be less of a priority than someone with another condition as you chose not to take the medical offering for Covid. You can't then expect to take scarce medical resources ahead of others - you already refused the treatment by refusing the vaccine. Science provides a way to reduce illness from Covid. You can't say - I don't like that science, I'll take the other option (also derived from science) of hospital treatment. So I do see your point. In the event of a shortage of beds, for me the unvaccinated by choice person is a lower priority than anyone else. They refused the solution.

There are solutions to obesity and drug and alcohol issues which people have also refused to take ? It can’t come as a huge surprise when certain people need hospital treatment due to their lifestyle choices. They all know how this could have been prevented after all. One solution to obesity is gastric band which also takes up valuable resources. Much easier than going on a diet. Shall we refuse this treatment because the person can just lose weight instead?