Why have people forgotten February 2020 ?

[DottyHarmer]

When Northern Italy was in a terrible state - dreadful scenes of overrun hospitals and over 70s were told to stay at home if they were ill because they were being deprioritised for beds. In China the situation (that we could see) wasn’t thrilling either.

And now we have people - posters on here - saying that there’s no point in vaccines “because they don’t reduce transmission” and people don’t get that ill anyway.

I don’t think the world shut down in 2020 for a laugh, and certainly not for some nefarious purpose to which so many were privy but has never been revealed .

[quote mclaw]@Cornettoninja but the vast majority are acting collectively;

So far, more than 51 million people have had a first vaccine dose - some 89% of over-12s. Nearly 47 million - 81.5% of over-12s - have had both doses

100% is impossible [/quote]
By and large I agree with you, but there is a significant, vocal, minority aggressively pushing back including people in positions of power and influence. From what I can see that circles it back to denial and people who otherwise could see the larger picture find a voice that’s in many, many ways more reassuring than reality and it pushes them to take actions they otherwise wouldn’t have.

I’m not perfect or unsympathetic; I have struggled with this wave precisely because what should be logical decisions are emotionally difficult because I’m human. Realistically going on a lengthy train journey to see a theatre show isn’t the best idea if I don’t want to be worrying about being ill over Christmas or getting a negative test to be able to see my palliative father, emotionally I just want to do something purely for the joy of it and that temptation is huge. I can absolutely see why people are taken with notions that aren’t entirely based on reality.

I don’t think that if you were in London in March 2020 and other affluent areas where people returned from Italy and other alpine resorts after half term and spread it around that you will forget in a hurry. 17% of Londoners i.e over 1.5m had antibodies by June and anecdotally lots of people had it before lockdown. The death rate was higher in the affluent villages and towns in West Yorkshire than the city centres where it later took hold for a long time because the blue lights and sirens were a regular occurrence in March. Ilkley was one of the worst hit.

I agree it is human nature to other and think it won’t happen to you but I also think that some drawn to anti vaxx misinformation and conspiracy theories are socially isolated and genuinely haven’t experienced the pandemic in the same way as others (until it does reach them and they end up in hospital) as well as being attracted to the comradeship and certainty on offer.

Anyway here we are back in the frontline as we were in March 2020 and when alpha took off with the government dithering but this time with the city grinding to a halt in a way it didn’t before so it is very hard to be oblivious (though no doubt some will manage it)

Because this country runs on a gamble.

They want to be free to spread their disease to others.

They have second homes to escape to.

We are not in the same position as March 20 obviously due to vaccination and previous infection and treatments.

So I don’t agree with that position.

Plus accumulated harms from lockdowns mean we need to include those.

[quote aliceca]@DockOTheBay nope. We could as in Asian countries wear masks in public when we are ill. We could abolish the ridiculous pressure on parents to send ill children into school. Basically having a far healthier attitude to illness would also protect people.[/quote]
Yes I would agree with this, although I don't think it would prevent thousands of deaths it would certainly be a good idea,

@MarshaBradyo

Op are you more talking about vaccine take up or lockdown etc?

As my take on latter has changed but not vaccines

I read it as more about people denying the effectiveness of vaccines, which has happened a lot on MN lately, including one poster urging us to take medical advice from Eric Clapton. I too have changed my mind on lockdowns and am on the fence about vaccine passports.

Covid deaths are largely preventable if we lock down society and destroy the economy, but it is unreasonable to do so

…or get vaccinated

Your other examples of RTA’s and diabetes - we don’t just accept them, we do a hell of a lot to try and prevent unnecessary deaths and life changing injury from both. The costs of those prevention methods would likely dwarf what we’ve spent on covid if you started adding it up from when both were started receiving treatment on the NHS. Like a lot of aspects of covid, it isn’t the end result it’s the fact we have to deal with its consequences in a short space of time - economic and health. The two are too closely interlinked to not take into account both when measuring impacts.

Aye panic a bit more, why don't you?

i do still care but there were no vaccine in 2020 thereis now-im not saying there dont need to be measures but how long can this go on for

the tories have ruined our nhs not covid

Italians are still deeply traumatised by the experience. They are wholly compliant with mask wearing, hand sanitiser, vaccinations and social distancing.
Compared to the UK Italians are probably more compliant but there's still loads of no-vaxxers too.

Dock if the bay

• But they're only "largely preventable" if we massively curtail our lives. RTAs deaths are largely preventable if we ban cars, but it is unreasonable to do so. Diabetes deaths are largely preventable if we ban certain foods and enforce mandatory exercise, but it is unreasonable to do so.*

Both road safety and diabetes have been around for many years and are researched and understood. We do take measures to control them. I remember the ridiculous fuss when seatbelts became a legal requirement . An infringement of liberties! You would be more likely to survive an accident if thrown clear!

And they have remained a fairly static threat. We have all been aware of them all of our lives and they are not going to suddenly mutate into a greater threat .

If you live in London at the moment where the rate is now at 2500 per 100k in the 20-30 working age population the economic damage is already very apparent. It hasn’t yet seeded into the older age groups. When we will see what the impact is on the NHS. This situation is evolving all the time. Even the right wing prats in government are conceding that reality t just overcome ideology. Barclay was admitting that this morning

California exactly same here, in the middle in what feels like extremes

Do we? I thought we had more people getting pissed off with the endless undermining of vaccines via more lockdowns. There doesn't seem much point in doing one's bit to reduce NHS pressures if the end result is still lockdown and setting fire to our children's education.

I'm on the fence too, I really dislike the division. There are grey areas

@camelfinger

Things are different now. We know much more and the death rate is much lower than it was in 2020. Sadly winter pressures feature every year in the NHS, and people just tend to get on with life in most winters when there are critical incidents, cancellations and no beds.

exactly this.

We're a year down the line from the first vaccine being administered and know so much more, especially about the efficacy of the different types of jab. People have direct experience of both the illness and taking the vaccines, not one, not two, but three + a combination of having had the vaccine and covid itself. A LOT happened since feb 2020 and we all had to cope with livelihoods destroyed, mental health issues emerging in all age groups, kids education taking a massive hit (if they cancel national exams again, this year's Y13 will have never taken a national exam!!). The majority of EU countries never cancelled one single national exam throughout the pandemic, the UK, on the other hand is world leaders in this also. Let's also not forget how many times we were deceived by our govt during these two yrs.

Do you seriously expect us all to live in that initial state of fear from two yrs ago for the rest of our lives every time a new variant crops up its ugly head and be dealing with all the above day in day out?! What kind of life would that be?!.... one that is not worth living IMO.

My question would be that 'Why is it that so many people are now totally conditioned to living in a state of fear and not ready to let go of those making decision for them?"

Sometimes I wish we could transport all those who are conspiratorial or just 'fed up' back to the Great Plague 1665-1666 and ask them to live with it.

@placemats

Sometimes I wish we could transport all those who are conspiratorial or just 'fed up' back to the Great Plague 1665-1666 and ask them to live with it.

What are you advocating?

Vaccines or back to same actions as March 20?

It’s hard to tell from posts like this

Sometimes I wish we could transport all those who are conspiratorial or just 'fed up' back to the Great Plague 1665-1666 and ask them to live with it.

I really don't understand this thinking. Why is it not ok to be fed up? I'm fed up of covid.

I'm concerned about this latest variant, but I certainly haven't lived my life in fear, as some on here suggest. @ToooutThere being the worst.

I've been to London, and parties, been to Northern Ireland, travelled by boat and train, plus airplanes.

My freedom is reduced when other countries consider Britain, plague island.

I can't make myself be terrified of it when I'm not.

It's that comment above. People are too selfish to do anything except out of personal fear, and our measures have been just successful enough for them to have avoided seeing those that would terrify them. They are deliberately not imaginative enough about things that could happen because it would lead to inconvenient outcomes.

What are you advocating?

I assume death & despair which seems a tad hypocritical! 😆

@mclaw

Sometimes I wish we could transport all those who are conspiratorial or just 'fed up' back to the Great Plague 1665-1666 and ask them to live with it.

I really don't understand this thinking. Why is it not ok to be fed up? I'm fed up of covid.

I bet they were fed up with it as well.

However, they didn't have the internet, phones, transport, supermarkets.

Go back there by all means and I bet you'll last a day.

People are too selfish to do anything except out of personal fear

The vast majority of people had the vaccine & complied with lockdown because of personal fear.

@Treaclepie19

From what I'm reading on here a lot of people just don't care now if the elderly or vulnerable get ill because that's "part of life"

This and if it hasn't affected them personally then many people don't actually care much.

I also think the fact that the government/advisors etc all do exactly what they want to do whilst telling everyone else they are restricted.... they 12 months later government supporters tell us to move on it was a year ago, it was a work meeting with wine and cheese and wife's and it was socially distanced parties etc etc etc. The government are a bunch of self serving idiots so it's stopped SOME people following any guidelines they give.