What does a ‘major incident’ in London mean?

[Fivemoreminutes1]

Sadiq has declared a major incident in London regarding the surge in cases, but what does it mean for those who live/work/visit London in the next few days?

Where do you draw the line with this stance? No treatment for drivers in accidents if they weren't wearing a seat belt? No treatment for anyone indulging in high risk sports? Deny treatment for alcoholics or smokers?

If hospitals were clogged with hundreds of people injured dangerous sports to the extent that it meant that there wasn't enough capacity to treat those with heart attacks, strokes and cancer, and was threatening to require a return to lockdown, then yes, it would seem reasonable to say if absolutely needed: "stop your dangerous sports or we won't treat you".

Of course, not treating the unvaccinated would be appalling, but arguably the alternative is even worse if we get to the point of literally having to ration urgent care and dozens of heart attack, cancer and stroke victims die through lack of treatment. The unvaccinated would be making an informed choice... Remain unvaccinated if you wish, but don't expect society to come to your aid and divert is attention from other critical patients.

[quote motherofgodhaudyerwheesht]@ToughTittyWhompus

I really dont think that it is @DottyHarmer that needs to give their 'head a wobble'.

Its the unvaccinated that are overwhelmingly needing hospitalisation. If not preventing outright, vaccination is at least diminishing the severity of new variants.

I'd really like to shove bodily autonomy up its own ass, and I suspect most frontline healthcare professionals right now would like to do the same.[/quote]
I totally agree

It's what they just did in NL where numbers are not nearly so bad.

@KittenCatcher

No cactus I wouldnt which is why I mentioned carers and hcp. Hospitals are not run entirely by health professionals. Many other people can be trained up to be carers which is often what medically fit patients receive in the community.

No one wants to be a carer

Many have left and my borough is offering sign up bonuses for those who want to join. It's not a popular job.

I'd really like to shove bodily autonomy up its own ass, and I suspect most frontline healthcare professionals right now would like to do the same

Bodily autonomy should be respected, but rights come with responsibilities, and actions should have consequences.

@KittenCatcher

Can they reopen nightingales for fit patients with low needs staffed by redeploying hospitality staff, chefs, shop staff, admin staff who are at risk of losing their jobs with carers and hcp (if they can find them).

'Fit patient with low needs' would be better off at home than in a draughty conference venue with no qualified staff to look after them!

I think the antivaxxers are victims of targeted misinformation, or poor scientific education, or are mistrusting of a system that doesn't work for them. Or all three.

Yep - it's easy to say "they're thick and ignorant" but I have 2 in my family, both have phDs, one a professor and one a doctor. Essentially it's like a religion. Once you are in it, it is very hard to get out, and nothing anyone says will make you un-believe. They both read scientific papers and articles that say the vaccine is poison/will kill everyone/is dangerous - even though any data can be falsified, you can make many different interpretations out of the same data, and just because an article is published doesn't mean it is true. They'll cherry pick examples of 1 person who had bad side effects, ignoring the 99% who were fine. The more the government push for restrictions, the more it plays into their "proof" that it's all a plot for control. They trust all the whistleblower doctors because they "have no agenda", whereas all the Sage/Government ones are apparently Bill Gates's puppets. They socialise in an echo chamber of likeminded people and think the rest of the country are sheep/idiots.

How do you change someone's mind like that? How do you change the mind of a Jehovah's Witness, or someone in the Westboro Baptist Church? If you say anything positive about the vaccine they'll lecture you for 2 hours with the hundreds of articles they've read and videos they've watched. I just ask them to not talk about it around me because I'm sick of hearing about it.

Just what are we going to do about the unvaxxed?

I think it’s time to put them into lockdown and withhold covid related medical treatment. I’d also stop the kids with unvaccinated parents from attending school.

Desperate times, desperate measures.

Exemptions for medical reasons, obviously.

I didn't say thick or ignorant. Education is very very different from intelligence, see the front bench.

@HelloMissus

There’s an incident alright. A quarter of Londoners have refused the vaccine and they’re now clogging up the hospitals.

The correct figure is that one third of Londoners have had no jabs at all: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/third-of-people-in-london-have-not-had-any-jabs-crgcj5g7c

I’d also stop the kids with unvaccinated parents from attending school.

That's completely unfair on the kids as they have nothing to do with it....

I work for a police force outside London. Newsflash - emergency workers aren’t immune. People are dropping like flies. Custody is on its knees already because you need specific training and qualifications to work there. Ditto firearms, response drivers.

For some it’s mild symptoms, and I saw a poster here calling it a festival for ‘skivers’. While there might be some that over egg it, there are some who it’s worse than a cold, a lot worse. Annual Leave and rest days are being cancelled left, right and centre and cover is at scary levels. The same goes for the Control Room. For some reason DV is absolutely through the roof, never seen levels like it.

It’s not just about whether the virus is deadly or not, it’s the knock on effects. That March horrified me. 😣😖

Education is very very different from intelligence, see the front bench.

You can still be very intelligent and still fall prey to religion/extremism/a belief system. I think for a lot of people it starts with a distrust of the government.

I’d also stop the kids with unvaccinated parents from attending school

How would that help? Being vaccinated doesn't stop you from getting or passing on the virus, so why punish the children for their parents decisions? Not to mention that the children themselves are likely to be unvaccinated, or partially vaccinated.

Also in London and I know dozens of people who have it or are isolating due to close contact at the moment

People only need to isolate as a close contact if they are not fully vaxxed. This is one of the reasons London is so fucked, the poor vaccine rate. Means higher cases and more close contacts isolating (if they’re bothering to do so but I imagine most anti-vaxxers aren’t exactly sticklers for the rules.

@Whinge

I’d also stop the kids with unvaccinated parents from attending school

How would that help? Being vaccinated doesn't stop you from getting or passing on the virus, so why punish the children for their parents decisions? Not to mention that the children themselves are likely to be unvaccinated, or partially vaccinated.

Because the parents might make bette decisions when they see how it impacts their children.

Yes pretty sure we’ve all got the message that the vaccine doesn’t fully stop transmission/catching covid. But some people still seem to be struggling to understand that it stops the vast majority of people from getting very sick.

@Bananarice

Will firefighters drive ambulance again?

Unless something happened at the protest.

London fire service are struggling with staff absences of their own. There was 40 fire engines out of use recently due to covid absence. There was a London transport strike affecting a number if tube lines today. As a result I had a horrible journey packed in like sardines getting to Hammersmith

I must admit I'm getting fed up and hardening my stance on this. I'm in London and know so many people who have covid. I've cancelled any plans to socialise, as have many of my friends. I just don't want to miss Christmas with family. But lots of people haven't. I was on a tube In central London yesterday and only about 60% were wearing masks. I went in a Sainsbury's local tonight and it was less than 50%. I'm tired of the people who can't be bothered wearing masks, and those who refuse to be vaccinated spoiling it for the rest of us. I work in the hospitality business and it's decimated. I'm tired, frustrated and fed up.

the nightingale hospitals could be used to decant patients who no longer need to be in hospital but can't be discharged until they test negative or have finished isolating. Quite a lot of hospital beds are inhabited by people who are not unwell and that is the problem. Carers are having to isolate so care home and care agencies cannot support hospital leavers and also wont if they are still in their isolation period but most unwell people do not need 10 days in hospital so are taking up beds unnecessarily.
Add to that that if a patient is on a non covid ward and suddenly tests positive a few days in, the other 5 patients in that bay all have to be treated as in they might have covid and so also cannot be discharged to homes/p/vulnerable partners,packages of care etc.
The hospitals are full, but not with all poorly patients.
Add to that hospital staff testing regularly and picking up asymptomatic covid and having to have 10 days off each time, and 10 days off if track and traced and 10 days off if household member has covid. It is a complete nightmare.

@vickyp0llard

I’d also stop the kids with unvaccinated parents from attending school.

That's completely unfair on the kids as they have nothing to do with it....

That’s absolutely right. But actions have consequences.

I really don’t see why I have to stay home for 10 days with zero covid symptoms, have my kids Christmas ruined, all so I can protect the unvaccinated.

@DottyHarmer

Just what are we going to do about the unvaxxed?

I have on excellent authority that in my city hospital 80% of covid patients are unvaxxed. The 20% vaccinated are elderly.

Of course vaccinated people can pass the virus on and indeed be ill, but if the NHS and thereby treatment for all patients for whatever disease or injury is in peril because of those who refuse vaccination then we seem to be in a really unfair situation.

Will we have to suffer continual lockdowns/travel bans and general disruption and just accept it because of some people’s “bodily autonomy”?

Surely it doesn’t matter if 80,90 or 100% of hospital cases are the unvaccinated as long as numbers are really low in them?

Presumably a high proportion the unvaccinated will have natural immunity soon as they will have caught one variant or another.

Why aren’t antibody tests more available? Even if you had to pay a bit.

Yes, my post was an either or, not all three at once. Intelligent and misled by false information, for example. I wasn't blaming antivaxxers.

Quite a lot of hospital beds are inhabited by people who are not unwell and that is the problem

Very true and that needs to be fixed by improving social care

Maybe we should just do an opt in scheme for the NHS? Those who don't want the vaccine no longer pay taxes towards it and that allows the vaccinated to be treated in NHS hospitals and all the non vaccinated to go private which allow bodily autonomy. Happy days