90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

Is there any additional information on the patients who are unvaccinated? How many of them are are CEV and ineligible for vaccination? Pregnant or post-partum women who've had a lot of conflicting advice even from health care professionals?

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion.

I've no idea of these people's circumstances or what lead them to be unvaccinated.

@Bigballer covid patients who are icu tend yo be there for a very long time before they either start or recover or die where as a patient who is post surgery may only be there for a couple of nights.

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense

I think the argument is that covid patients generally spend quite a long time on ICU (I think during the first wave, the average was 14 days or so, and we definitely had patients in ICU for months, mostly the younger ones who didn’t die so quickly).

A patient admitted to ICU for elective post-o monitoring will generally only be in there for 24-48 hours. So one Covid admission uses ICU for as long as ten post-op patients would have done.

I have no idea how accurate those figures are, but that’s where the numbers come from.

@Fallagain cross posted! You put it much more succinctly than me

@Bigballer

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.

The NHS had/has no choice but to worry about covid really, when covid is causing people to need hospital treatment. They have to deal with the people who are coming into hospital, and right now that includes people with an infectious illness that needs medical treatment as well as isolation.

@Bigballer

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.

Not worry about covid???

This IS 'getting on with it*

Or would you rather they didn't treat covid patients?

MHS isn't on its knees because of restrictions. I can't even think how you've come to that conclusion.

The MHS is on its knees through lack of funding & because it's badly managed. It's under a great deal of stress because a great number of people are ill & have been for almost 2 years, the hardworking staff are knocked, stressed and fed up!

Three unvaccinated male siblings, all in their 60s, who live near us, were recently in hospital for 2-3 weeks each. How much of that was in ICU I don’t know, but they were still taking up a bed each.
They were unvaccinated because they ‘weren’t sure’ about it. (The words of the one who told me.)
They bloody well are ‘sure’ now. When I saw one of them who’d recently come home, a previously normally active man, he was walking like a doddery 93 year old, with a stick.

It's like the vaccine is effective....

You could ask why people do any number of things.

Why do people drink that much alcohol they vomit in the street and need to have their stomach pumped?

Why do people do risky, needless activities like the black run at skiing or skydiving?

Why do people eat crap food when they know for a fact it could make them ill?

As far as I’m concerned, unless someone has a medical reason not to have the vaccine they’re a bit a daft. However, the reason the NHS is creaking is far wider than a few people not getting jabbed.

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.

@AngeloMysterioso

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.

And you would be in favor of this approach for smokers, drinkers, people who eat junk food and are overweight, people who go rock climbing or mountaineering and end up being rescued with frostbite or broken limbs? After all, they knew the risks…

You could say the same about people who fall from ladders who have car crashes. The list could go on and on.

They either think they know better (they don’t), they have their heads buried in the sand or they’re just not thinking. To me it seems to be a very certain sort of arrogance to hear (or sometimes refuse to hear) the top medical and scientific minds are saying and think you know better, but it’s an attractive route for many somehow. (I’m am of course referring to those that won’t be vaccinated not those that can’t).
Of course the troubles in the NHS are far bigger than just covid, but covid is now a large part of the picture, I’m sure they’d love to ‘get on with it’ and ‘not worry’ about covid but that’s just not on the table for the nhs right now.

What’s worse is if every adult had the vaccine then there would be no reason for dc to have it.
That’s what really annoys me.

I manage a surgical service across two hospital sites.

The worst part of my job is calling patients to tell them their surgery is cancelled due to no ITU bed. These are not people who are having some routine minor surgery, they need ITU because they are due for major life saving surgery.

They’ve planned their time off, they’ve isolated, they’ve been swabbed, they’ve had countless appointments/tests/pre ops and then they get me on the phone saying “sorry no go”.

The worst part is that you don’t know how it will go until the day before. There is a meeting first thing everyday to see if any patients can stepped down from ITU to a normal bed. If it’s a no then it’s a case of, ok there’s one bed, who gets it? We have specialities fighting each other for the chance to go ahead, pitting cancer against cancer or AAAs. Patients losing limbs because the bypass they need can’t be done because there isn’t a bed for them afterwards (might as well just take the limb once the leg is rotten enough).

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

I already know I’ll have a cancellation this morning, it’s beyond bloody depressing

@BritWifeInUSA how is an accident the same as consciously choosing to refuse a vaccine? Also those other things mentioned, when the government and the NHS offer effective treatments for those addictions, and address the underlying reasons why people become eat themselves into oblivion (clue its often not just because they're greedy) then sure maybe they could be compared. As they don't then nope, it's not a gotcha.

I would just be a bit wary of figures like these to be honest. Double vaccinated patients eligible for a booster are now being counted as unvaccinated in the stats so I’m not quite sure I can entirely believe headline figures like these. Patients less than 2 weeks post vaccination or booster are also included and there are some who argue that pre 14 days the immune system is temporarily lowered.

What news Channel were you listening to OP? Were they referring to the statistics for Jan 21 to July 21? You know when no-one was double vaccinated? Context is everything.
It's like me saying the majority of those currently dying are fully vaccinated. This is true but as the majority are now fully vaccinated it makes sense.

@Lostinacloud I can assure you our ITU beds are full of the actual unvaccinated. Overweight males (and a smaller amount of females) who didn’t want the vaccine. We have a few who are vaccinated. I don’t include them in my anger.

My patients need 2/3 days of ITU after surgery. If you have someone in ITU for 3 weeks for covid that’s 7/8 planned surgeries not going ahead so we can keep them alive.

7/8 people with cancer. 7/8 people with massive aneurysms. 7/8 people we’ve let down.

@WoodyGd that sounds really tough and shouldn’t be happening but why aren’t you blaming the government? They have found billions for their mates’ covid testing businesses and more billions for vaccines for healthy not at risk teens and adults but can’t invest in the NHS during a pandemic or pre pandemic when faced with an ever ageing population?
Next they plan to sack thousands of healthcare workers because they wish to make a choice over what goes into their own bodies.
I can see why in the short term you would be frustrated by non vaccinated Covid patients using beds in icu but really we should all be asking much more of the government and not of each other.

@Toty agreed. The “latest” figures released are based on earlier this year when a great deal more people hadn’t had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated. Where are the more recent figures? Hmm maybe they don’t work for the narrative?

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Is there any additional information on the patients who are unvaccinated? How many of them are are CEV and ineligible for vaccination? Pregnant or post-partum women who've had a lot of conflicting advice even from health care professionals?

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion.

I've no idea of these people's circumstances or what lead them to be unvaccinated.

Being CEV is a reason to be vaccinated, not a contraindication, and it has been strongly indicated for pregnant women since April.

You don’t really have to take personal responsibility for your health in this country. I suppose tax on cigarettes and alcohol is a bit like paying a higher premium on your health insurance but that is about it. I guess that is why so many people love the nhs so much.

@Lostinacloud we have the beds. We have EMPTY ITU beds. We don’t have the staff to care for the patients in them. At last count we had 12 ITU nurses off long term sick due to PTSD, stress or exhaustion. If we had the staff we could open more beds.

I’m not angry about the proposal to make NHS staff get vaccinated. We have no right to potentially be spreading a virus around sick, vulnerable people

@Bigballer

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.

The length of time they’re in.