What does everyone think about the banning of the unvaxxed in Germany?

[Katieandthekids]

I'm just interested in opinions. I personally believe that no one should ever force anyone to put something in their body.

Just as a side: I had both vaccines during my pregnancy and still not 100% sure I've done the right thing but in balance and after lots of my research believe 99% that it is fine. Totally respect the reasons people are nervous about it though.

[quote supermoonrising]@BlueskiesAbove
The analogy with drink driving isnt ridiculous at all. Not getting vaccinated is a personal choice. Drinking is a personal choice. All good.
But people getting in a car while drunk has a detrimental effect on the safety and well-being of others compared to either those drunk people A) driving sober or B)drinking, but staying at home/using public transport.

Similarly, millions of unvaccinated going into restaurants, hotels,busy public places at the height of winter has a detrimental effect on the safety and well-being of others, compared to either A) them getting the vaccine or B) them not getting the vaccine, but staying out of crowded areas.

The analogy stands up well enough.[/quote]
It is a ridiculous analogy.. You can't die from remaining sober or wearing a seatbelt. Asking a large demographic of people to inject themselves repeatedly for " the greater good " is not the same as a bit of cloth around your waist. The fact you think it is beggars belief quite frankly. Any medical procedure being likened to wearing a seatbelt is absurd which I think you know deep down.

I’m in Germany. I’m all for body autonomy but this measure is actually needed now. The sheer amount of people who simply refuse to be vaccinated, or claim their magical natural remedies will make them indestructible and unable to pass the virus on.

Genuinely exempt people, who can’t get vaccinated for health reasons, a history of reactions etc, have always had access to a certificate that says so. When free community testing were stopped, they still had access to the free tests, so they could go to a restaurant or museum.

This is not about those who can’t take the vaccine. It’s about those who simply don’t want to. People who are still going to football matches and pubs and concerts and are putting those around them at risk.

There is no central system for checking negative test results are genuine. To set one up would require a complete overhaul of the healthcare system. There are hundreds of healthcare providers in this country, it would take decades to centralise it all. The aforementioned anti-vaxxers are also quite good at forging negative tests. Hence, the spread.

For contrast, there IS a single system that can check vaccination and recovery certificates are genuine. Which is what is being used now.

Carrying your paperwork when you leave your home is completely normal in many civilised countries and I don’t see people protesting about that. I’m Spanish and we always have to carry ID on us at home. By the time you’re 14, you must own an ID card, by law. It’s a simple card you keep in your bag and everybody does that, yet I don’t see people comparing Spain with Nazi Germany.

Some areas of Germany are at the brink of their hospitals collapsing. Especially in the east, people aren’t getting their vaccines. The ICUs are almost full. Yet unvaccinated people still want full access to public life.

I’m sorry but no - I haven’t done three lockdowns, months and months m of no income and everything we all went through last year, for my workplace and our local businesses to close yet again, because the infections are too high. Because our hospitals are getting overwhelmed. Because people aren’t vaccinated and with each variant, they are transmitting more and more viral load to their unvaccinated friends and relatives. And to vulnerable people who despite the vaccines, are still not fully protected.

They won’t be able to 100% enforce the compulsory vaccination. Many people will fall through the system undetected. But they are right in taking measures because we need to keep things open. And we can’t do it at the expense of yet more unnecessary deaths, so we need protective measures to stay open.

@EileenGC You say you are all for body autonomy but support enforced medical procedures people don't want

I'm trying to decide who gets the overreacting of the day award, but there are just to many to choose from.

i’m all for body autonomy but

Rubbish, you are not for bodily autonomy at all or there would be no ‘but’ about it, own it at least.

Good thing you’re in a country that supports your ideology.

Clearly fear the vaccine does not work then.. so why the pressure for others to get it, if it does not work?

@XenoBitch it works if the majority take it up. Areas of Germany have less than 60% of their population fully vaccinated. That’s barely over half. It doesn’t work when you have 40% of the population unprotected.

I don’t see compulsory vaccination being enforced in Spain, because they actually have a very high uptake rate.

The UK has in general done very well too. There is a lot more immunity from vaccines AND illness recovery, so softer measures are in place.

What the German rules actually are ka news

@EileenGC

Clearly fear the vaccine does not work then.. so why the pressure for others to get it, if it does not work?

@XenoBitch it works if the majority take it up. Areas of Germany have less than 60% of their population fully vaccinated. That’s barely over half. It doesn’t work when you have 40% of the population unprotected.

I don’t see compulsory vaccination being enforced in Spain, because they actually have a very high uptake rate.

The UK has in general done very well too. There is a lot more immunity from vaccines AND illness recovery, so softer measures are in place.

So address the hesitancy, rather than force the vaccine. More carrot, less stick.

[quote BlueskiesAbove]@EileenGC You say you are all for body autonomy but support enforced medical procedures people don't want [/quote]
No, I support restricting those people from entering certain places where they will come into close contact with many others.

They can refuse the vaccine, that is a choice. But they also can’t expect 100% access to public life. It’s not about me or them, it’s about those people who will not have an ICU bed when they get into an accident. It’s about people who won’t have access to medical treatment because the healthcare system is overwhelmed.

So address the hesitancy, rather than force the vaccine

Yes, more public engagement, better information campaigns

@Postdatedpandemic

What the German rules actually are ka news

That article is a week old and only applies to Baden-Württenberg. The new rules were approved today and are applicable nationwide, although states still have the power to enforce or refuse some of them. Each Senate must now vote on their local rules.

@EileenGC surely, everyone should expect 100% access to public life, all of the time. Any time. That is actually normal and our right believe it or not.

@EileenGC the old don't overstretch the healthcare system in whatever specific country you allude to always gets trotted out. The facts are an elderly obese person who is vaccinated is more likely to overstretch the hospitals than a younger unvaccinated one. Your inability to differentiate between different circumstances with each person is one of the main problems with this whole approach to the pandemic.

In 2020 guess how many alcohol related hospital admissions there were in the Uk... 1.26 MILLION. Puts things into a bit of perspective somewhat yet it's all about the younger unvaccinated people who have made a conscious choice with their own bodies who are overwhelming hospitals is it? What a load of nonsense

[quote SlimAspect]@EileenGC surely, everyone should expect 100% access to public life, all of the time. Any time. That is actually normal and our right believe it or not.[/quote]
I honestly couldn’t wish for anything else other than a return to normal life like we all knew it, pre-2020. God I’d give anything for that.

These are not normal times. Do you work in an industry that has been affected by this firsthand, or are you in the ICUs seeing how people keep dying unnecessarily?

I want to be able to work like I used to. I’m healthy, young (and vaccinated) and yet not allowed to do my job like I used to, because we’re in a global health crisis. My job might never be the same after this is all over.

The reality is, not everyone had 100% access to public life even before this. People were discriminated because of their disabilities or religion or any other characteristic that prevented them from actually being able to do what they wanted or go where they wanted. Let’s not pretend we, as a society, weren’t already excluding people, and that was for reasons outside their control.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. This is what we are seeing.

I may be wrong and in the future this is disproven and I will gladly accept that. The issue is, right now, MY life is also being restricted because we’re still in a crisis. And I want it to end ASAP.

@Lostgirl78

We've had vaccine passes since August in France. You have to be vaccinated, recovered or tested (at a chemist where you pay 20 odd quid a pop) to get into restaurants, public spaces, concerts, theme parks etc. And we all have to wear masks. Even 6 year old kids in school. No exceptions. I'm not sure if you can be exempt. There was none of that lanyard business here. You have to disinfect your hands going into a shop or... well, anywhere. It"s not idéal, but we're never going to get out of this if we don't play ball.

It's rather odd don't you think that despite playing ball in France it appears the cases are still rising. It's almost like the strict restrictions aren't making any difference

it's all about the younger unvaccinated people who have made a conscious choice with their own bodies who are overwhelming hospitals is it? What a load of nonsense

When did I say that? Have you actually informed yourself about what is happening in Germany at the moment?

It’s not the young, healthy unvaccinated who are overwhelming the hospitals. Yes, there are some of them. But there are many, many 50, 60, 70 and 80 year olds who are refusing the vaccine.

Your reasoning also gets ‘trotted out’ quite often and it’s not more accurate than mine.

It's almost like the strict restrictions aren't making any difference

It’s almost like the numbers could be even higher if it weren’t for restrictions.

People forget Europe didn’t see a surge in cases during summer like the UK did. Cases were extremely low here for months, incidences in the single or double digits for weeks on end.

The fact that the UK has accepted a stable incidence of 400+ for months at a time, doesn’t exclude other countries from seeing spikes and waves this winter. Spikes and waves that are, in the majority of cases, smaller than the UK’s cases in September.

This is a virus. It’s going to mutate and create new waves of infections and affect everybody. Some countries have chosen to mitigate the number of people who are getting it. Without those mitigations they could be seeing even higher numbers.

No one appreciates the value of freedom until it's gone.

This is not about those who can’t take the vaccine. It’s about those who simply don’t want to. People who are still going to football matches and pubs and concerts and are putting those around them at risk.

Exactly.

My rights! Me, being restricted! My bodily autonomy! My tinfoil hat! This is a global pandemic which will go on for years longer than it needs to and kill millions more worldwide, while people stomp about shouting about their sovereign selves' whims and desires being greater than the actual lives and affected health of others.

@EileenGC

it's all about the younger unvaccinated people who have made a conscious choice with their own bodies who are overwhelming hospitals is it? What a load of nonsense

When did I say that? Have you actually informed yourself about what is happening in Germany at the moment?

It’s not the young, healthy unvaccinated who are overwhelming the hospitals. Yes, there are some of them. But there are many, many 50, 60, 70 and 80 year olds who are refusing the vaccine.

Your reasoning also gets ‘trotted out’ quite often and it’s not more accurate than mine.

I'm well aware of what's happening in Germany, similar to the Uk more hospital beds are taken from patients relating to alcohol related issues than covid ones. It seems to be covid rather than anything else- are you in favour of banning alcohol and if not why not?

@milkyaqua

This is not about those who can’t take the vaccine. It’s about those who simply don’t want to. People who are still going to football matches and pubs and concerts and are putting those around them at risk.

Exactly.

My rights! Me, being restricted! My bodily autonomy! My tinfoil hat! This is a global pandemic which will go on for years longer than it needs to and kill millions more worldwide, while people stomp about shouting about their sovereign selves' whims and desires being greater than the actual lives and affected health of others.

What's a tin foil hat got to do with not wanting a vaccine that causes for many significant health side effects.. to parrot the phrase used when Johnson was talking about pepper pig- are you ok?

@EileenGC

I work in a sector that was only really affected by having to WFH, so affected yes but only slightly. And that is just the “new normal” now. And I sympathise with you on that.

I am also young, vaccinated and healthy, I’m a huge advocate for vaccines and urge anyone who is able to to get it, if they want to, but whether they do or not is their choice. They can be presented with all the facts but if they choose not to that is their right.

Surely segregating the people who choose not to is not at all returning to ‘normal’ life, and means that this will never end. There will always be people who refuse the vaccine, no matter what, so does that mean for the rest of our lives we treat the ones that make that choice differently?! That’s no way to live.

I see what you’re saying in that there has always been differences in what people can do due to other things, but as a society most of us once it is pointed out that a certain space/place/event etc isn’t accommodating others that can’t do these things we modify it so that they can we don’t just shun them away.

To truly return to normal we have to just accept that people are entitled to have their choice and just live.

@EileenGC

It's almost like the strict restrictions aren't making any difference

It’s almost like the numbers could be even higher if it weren’t for restrictions.

People forget Europe didn’t see a surge in cases during summer like the UK did. Cases were extremely low here for months, incidences in the single or double digits for weeks on end.

The fact that the UK has accepted a stable incidence of 400+ for months at a time, doesn’t exclude other countries from seeing spikes and waves this winter. Spikes and waves that are, in the majority of cases, smaller than the UK’s cases in September.

This is a virus. It’s going to mutate and create new waves of infections and affect everybody. Some countries have chosen to mitigate the number of people who are getting it. Without those mitigations they could be seeing even higher numbers.

Well said It's almost like some people only see what they want to see....

Meh if you've opted to not have the jab you are increasing the risk to the everyone else so I don't have much sympathy.

I think it's interesting that a democratic government would behave this way but I don't find it horrifying or dystopian in the context of vaccination within a global pandemic.

Mass extermination of anyone refusing to comply with brain chips or whatever is not the logical next step from this so I don't understand why people are getting so upset about it.

1.3 million alcohol related Uk hospital admissions in 2020 , how many of the people going on about the selfish unvaccinated people taking up hospital beds are tee totallers? Strange how it is selfish to not want to take a vaccine which has a small chance of death but glug wine down reading mumsnet- ah well takes all sorts @sleepwouldbenice. You trot out the phrase covid minimsier, I call you a wine minimiser.