What does everyone think about the banning of the unvaxxed in Germany?

[Katieandthekids]

I'm just interested in opinions. I personally believe that no one should ever force anyone to put something in their body.

Just as a side: I had both vaccines during my pregnancy and still not 100% sure I've done the right thing but in balance and after lots of my research believe 99% that it is fine. Totally respect the reasons people are nervous about it though.

We're dealing with far more transmissible variants which is why cases are so high
So you are saying the vaccines can't cope with the more transmissible variants @ollyollyoxenfree ? Surely that's a concern? And if that is the case, why are you calling for more people to get vaccinated?

The vaccines may be less effective against the current strain but it doesn't mean they don't work at all. No scientist is talking about complete vaccine escape. Anything that minimises the severity and transmissibility of the virus is a a good thing. So the more people who are vaccinated, the less serious illness there will be.

I'm finding it extremely irritating to see the vocal unvaccinated now defining themselves as some kind of victimised group. In the vast majority of cases, anyone unvaccinated has actively made that choice. At any point they can make a different choice.

@churchofthepoisonmind

We're dealing with far more transmissible variants which is why cases are so high So you are saying the vaccines can't cope with the more transmissible variants *@ollyollyoxenfree* ? Surely that's a concern? And if that is the case, why are you calling for more people to get vaccinated?

I'm not "calling for more people to get vaccinated", I've said over and over again it's someone's choice whether go ahead or not. I'm pointing out the rationale as to why governments worldwide are trying desperately to increase their vaccination levels.

you are saying the vaccines can't cope with the more transmissible variants
No, I'm saying that if a virus is more transmissible, more people in the population will get it. Without or without vaccination.

Vaccines significantly reduce infection and transmission, the more people who have this extra layer of immunity, the less cases, illness, hosptilisations and death we'll see.

well put @ollyollyoxenfree

Also you can’t make comparison between nations, the situation in Germany varies very much from state to state, both in terms of vaccination rates and hospital capacity. And within the vaccination rates, if they’re even a few % points lower in a higher age bracket they make a considerable difference in hospitalisation rates.
We have a more transmissible version of the virus circulating in a society that is/has been much more open, and some of the vaccinated people are in the period of declining immunity.

Church this is a few weeks out of date now but I found it a useful visualisation for effectiveness of vaccines

This is U.K. and shows how high our hospitalisation and deaths got last winter

This winter it looks better so far however we have a new variant so we’ll see what happens but the divergence of the cases line is due to vaccines

Good for Germany. Should be applauded. I wish they would do it here.

If people choose to be walking health hazards, to risk wilfully overcrowding hospital ICUs, they can put up with it. They're not going to starve, they can still go out.

People aren't allowed to do lots of mucky/dangerous/ antisocial things. It's called living responsibly in a society. You can't drive drunk, you can't use the street for a loo, you can't smoke on public transport.

It's not about the individual. It won't last forever. It's just what is needed right now.

If people choose to be walking health hazards, to risk wilfully overcrowding hospital ICUs, they can put up with it

Yep same goes for those choosing to be health hazards due to their lifestyle choices, they choose that just as much as anybody chooses a vaccine or not, only difference is a lot of unvaccinated are a minuscule risk compared to the unhealthy by lifestyle.

People just throw graphs and numbers around like they are the ultimate proof. I question those too. Wasn’t there a scandal about HOW they counted Covid deaths? Didn’t they alter those numbers on and off? I personally know a family fighting to have a death certificate changed as it was put down as Covid.

@MarshaBradyo

Church this is a few weeks out of date now but I found it a useful visualisation for effectiveness of vaccines

This is U.K. and shows how high our hospitalisation and deaths got last winter

This winter it looks better so far however we have a new variant so we’ll see what happens but the divergence of the cases line is due to vaccines

This should be a fucking MN sticky. I am tired of posters saying the vaccines don't work.

@Sassenach85

People just throw graphs and numbers around like they are the ultimate proof. I question those too. Wasn’t there a scandal about HOW they counted Covid deaths? Didn’t they alter those numbers on and off? I personally know a family fighting to have a death certificate changed as it was put down as Covid.

Loads and loads of death certificates have been put down to Covid when it want Covid that was the cause of death. It skews the figures massively.

Wasn’t

Ok if no one wants to rely on graphs and figures, I guess we have to rely on anecdotes like "I personally know X people who..." We can all throw those about too. Personally everyone I know has had zero side effects from AZ, therefore I surmise that there are no side effects. ( or I could look at the data).

@Sassenach85

People just throw graphs and numbers around like they are the ultimate proof. I question those too. Wasn’t there a scandal about HOW they counted Covid deaths? Didn’t they alter those numbers on and off? I personally know a family fighting to have a death certificate changed as it was put down as Covid.

Do you mean the graph I put?

Also you’re better off to look at excess deaths

I don’t really mean a particular person. Or post. I just feel like at every level we should be questioning such huge momentous changes to our lives …. But most people don’t. I find it so unsettling. I guess I’m like that as a person prior to all this. It’s in my nature. But still. We must question everything. We must reject mandated vaccines. Or where does it end.

Its ridiculous

Majority of unvax - i would imagine - are younger and in less risky groups given they feel they don't need it - yet they want to discriminate themfrom shops and bars! There was murder when people suggested isolating the vulnerable - the actual ones at risk and who will put pressure of nhs - whether they are vaccinated or not!

Discrimination is still discrimination when vaccine still allows you to get sick and transmit covid

This should be a fucking MN sticky. I am tired of posters saying the vaccines don't work

To be fair this thread wouldn’t exist if people thought they did work. nobody would give a second thought to who was vaccinated and there certainly wouldn’t be any need for vaccine mandates.

Loads of people are still shielding you know.

If there is ultimately a need to ration ICU beds, do you think they would give the bed to a 45 year old antivaxxer or a 60 year old parent of teenagers? It would be a very hard decision and I think it is one the Germans don't want to make.

And even though I can see that, I wouldn't argue for that policy in the UK right now, I think positively encouraging people to have vaccinations and boosters is the right plan for us,.

Never mind, soon instead of being banned in Germany, the unvaccinated will be fined or jailed.

@MaxNormal

Never mind, soon instead of being banned in Germany, the unvaccinated will be fined or jailed.

This is happening in Greece. Desperate times, desperate measures.

Desperate times, desperate measures

I personally don't think times are that desperate that bodily automony should get chucked in the bin but I've got a bit of a thing for that and for informed consent for medical procedures.

I just never thought I'd be having to debate it. Desperate times indeed, but perhaps not in the way you meant.

@Sassenach85

I don’t really mean a particular person. Or post. I just feel like at every level we should be questioning such huge momentous changes to our lives …. But most people don’t. I find it so unsettling. I guess I’m like that as a person prior to all this. It’s in my nature. But still. We must question everything. We must reject mandated vaccines. Or where does it end.

I love your posts - they often sum up what I'm thinking. I think we are kindred spirits!

Why are things worse than ever now with over 60 per cent vaccinated in Germany? Worse than they were with 0 per cent vaccinated? Why are infections so high when we keep being told being vaccinated reduced the chance of catching this or passing it on?

Because the country isn't in a lockdown anymore. Because people are socialising and living normal lives instead of staying at home, working from home, eating at home and seeing people over zoom.

If it weren't for vaccines the numbers would be much higher. In Germany, the UK and everywhere else.

Like @WeDidntMeanToGoToSea said, the German public would never put up with the UK's current acceptance level to this virus, and the cases and deaths it has caused. It would be unacceptable for the government NOT to take action, NOT to try and mitigate this thing as much as they can. I can't even imagine the outrage that would happen if the prime minister had organised Christmas parties during lockdown, driven to Scotland for an eye test, or if a private testing company for Day 2 tests was set up by minister's mates and their wives. They would be out before the end of the day, instead of a few mocking threads on Mumsnet about it, and little else.

Germany's overall cases are still lower than the UK's, deaths are lower, disruptions to children's education last winter was shorter, people were never banned from seeing family or relatives by law, unlike in the UK. We lived a much more 'normal' life ever since the pandemic started. I was travelling abroad for Christmas last year whilst my best friend in England couldn't meet up with her dad who was dying of cancer FFS.

The few posters who have taken it upon themselves to explain to everybody why these measures are draconian, when they don't live here or understand this country's needs and customs are over the top. Simply because they don't know what they're talking about.

People ought to stop writing about countries they don't know anything about, like they're experts. I'm not an expert on Greece or Lithuania's current Covid situation, so I don't pretend I know what I'm talking about.

The Greek approach is more logical in my eyes. The real problem are the unvaxxed over 50s (I know they've said over 60s but I would go lower). They are the people putting disproportionate and preventable strain on the health service. Which ultimately affects everyone.