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Greece to Fine Unvaccinated Aged Over Sixty Yrs

202 replies

Flaxmeadow · 30/11/2021 11:44

Greece is to fine the unvaccinated aged over 60. Those not booking an appointment for a vaccine before January 16th will be fined €100 a month.
An estimated 520,000 over 60s in Greece are unvaccinated.

OP posts:
Hairwizard · 01/12/2021 08:04

@MaxNormal

Glad its not just me thinking like this.

MaxNormal · 01/12/2021 08:05

@Hairwizard I'm sorry you're going through this too.

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2021 08:09

"Why can't you just...?"

To someone with a phobia s the equivalent of saying 'just cheer up' to someone clinically depressed.

A phobia is an anxiety disorder. A mental health condition.

Sometimes you 'just can't' precisely because you have had a form of traumatic experience. You can't just 'get over' PTSD can you?

If you don't have a health phobia, its all very well saying you should be doing x, y and z. But thats part of the problem - people don't seek help because of the sheer number of dickheads who lack any compassion and understanding and then treat patients poorly and with a bad attitude over whatever health anxiety it is. And then reinforce and entrench that fear more.

Treatments like hypnosis do not work for everyone. If you have had multiple poor experiences, your phobia isn't necessarily just 'in your head' either. Its based on something tangible. Say a nurse trying multiple times to find a vein and cocking it up. You would go out of your way to avoid getting bashed repeatedly hard on the head if thats what happened to you every time went to the doctor, even if they gave you appropriate care wouldn't you? Because that's a normal rational response.

The ignorance around phobias, particularly health phobias is appalling. So often they are triggered by a bad experience too.

Then adding 'go private' on top of that appalling ignorance is the height of being out of touch with reality and privileged lack of understanding. Its just not an option for many. There is a known problem with private mental health provision anyway, with lots of options on offer but little in the way of regulation in terms of whether a particular treatment is suitable for a particular condition. There's concerns that people are paying money for something that isn't clinically proven in that area or worse still may make them worse not better. If you can afford it in the first place.

The pandemic was a brilliant opportunity to tackle some of these ignorant views about phobias and to raise awareness of how it affects so many people. Not only has it been a missed opportunity but its definitely made the stigma and abuse worse not better.

Some of those on this thread saying people should go private and get the fuck over it, should take a long hard look in the mirror and pay to go on a course on dealing with health phobias for HCPs. Can't find one you are able to sign up for/can afford/have time for? Well you just aren't trying hard enough...

I think to how war veterans have been called cowards in the past here and shamed by society and this we really haven't progressed as much as we profess on anxiety disorders.

FloconDeNeige · 01/12/2021 08:28

This reply has been deleted

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CrunchyCarrot · 01/12/2021 08:34

Very well said, @RedToothBrush.

I have a needle phobia and the last thing I need is for someone to mandate vaccines - at the moment I'd be looking at 3 jabs and probably more going forward. It's terrifying. Yes they are likely 'just small pricks' but having a needle phobia, that somehow doesn't make it through to the logical part of my brain. I 'know' it's probably quickly over with, but my whole being screams NO. I think unless you have a phobia it's very hard to understand, but it's problematic there are people who simply don't even try to understand. I have a similar phobia over public speaking. I quit a PhD over it, that's how bad it was. No-one should diminish these things nor suggest they are easy to get over (I was offered a one hour counselling session to 'get over' my public speaking phobia).

Even worse than a possible vaccine mandate is people yelling at each other and the division in society. You can't even question anything or discuss different views rationally. I despair.

Theplantisgrowing · 01/12/2021 08:47

It was me that suggested paying for private help for phobias. I totally acknowledged then that it is a privileged response. My point was how powerful it can be, I suffered acutely from two phobias and have had proper life changing hypnosis for both of them. My phobias are now manageable fears which no longer affect my life. If your phobia rules your life it is honestly worth every penny if you can try and scrape the money from somewhere, I appreciate that's just not possible in some cases. I didn't want to not mention it for fear of offending anyone by using the obscene word 'private' but some people may be able to afford it and it could well be life changing so I felt I had to speak up.

Cornishclio · 01/12/2021 08:58

It is not only Greece. We have a holiday to Canada booked (dates moved twice from 2020 to 2021 and now 2022) and I have just checked travel requirements. You can only travel and enter Canada from UK if you fully vaccinated. We have had all three vaccinations so far and will do anything to minimise our chances of catching Covid 19 but we have a choice as to whether we go or not. Residents of Greece obviously won't be able to move if they choose not to get vaccinated which sits a bit uncomfortably with me but equally I think everyone should be trying to help eradicate this disease and protect health services and workers.

MaxNormal · 01/12/2021 09:01

I don't have a needle phobia btw. I can't have the vaccine on medical grounds per my consultant but it seems the government disagrees. I don't feel that they have my best medical interests at heart (putting it mildly).

MRex · 01/12/2021 09:03

The political spectrum encompasses many types of extreme. Government ownership versus private enterprise, society versus individual, authoritarian versus libertarian. Many countries have greater similarity in attitutes to certain areas of the politicial spectrum among themselves than they share with their neighbours. Differing approaches work for different political cultures. Personally I'd despise such a policy in the UK where I feel more effective communication and fewer laws work best, but other countries approach things however works best for them.

A similarity between Greece and Austria who have introduced this is that they have all historically tended towards authoritarianism, so this may not get much resistance in those countries. The same isn't true of the UK, where authoritarian policies tend to meet with far greater public resistance than polite requests. The most authoritarian countries Russia and China are likely to have their own ways of insisting on vaccination too. Netherlands government are the ones who screwed up their policy so far IMO, their people are more libertarian by culture and reflexively fight back against it.

This isn't the only topic where differences in political spectrum between countries have a huge impact. Germany the higher acceptance of social payment responsibility than in the UK means they pay more for a better equipped public health service, whereas in the USA it's all about private enterprise and the public health service has less availability.

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2021 09:06

The fact the government hasn't done more on health anxiety and giving advice, counselling, special needle phobia clinics and advertised the fact this is an important issue and separated people having these problems from straight anti-vaxxers has been a massive issue and investing in this might get vaccine rates up and free up hospital beds and keep those costs down. Its probably an idea which would be save money in the longer term.

WaterBottle123 · 01/12/2021 09:07

The over 60's cannot expect the young to keep sacrificing to protect them though. They have a moral duty to do their bit, to help keep kids in school.

BamboozledandBefuddled · 01/12/2021 09:10

Have it to protect yourself and your way of life

I'll accept my life as it is before I'll accept the levels of coercion and force that some people support.

Noducksgiven · 01/12/2021 09:19

The over 60's cannot expect the young to keep sacrificing to protect them though. They have a moral duty to do their bit, to help keep kids in school.

Interestingly 85% of disabled children in Greece have no access to education. Some state homes even keep them in cages. They're not exactly renowned for giving a shit about the vulnerable in their society.

EffOrfagain · 01/12/2021 09:27

I don't agree with it but it is not here is it, different countries deal with things differently.

Weepingash · 01/12/2021 13:11

I can't believe some of the posts I read on MN. I read one the other day saying that their hope was that all the unvaccinated get Covid and die..that'll serve them right and get rid of some idiots in this country.

Fining people for not being jabbed.. So the poor would have no choice then?

You can almost hear the glee in the posts... We should punish people for not conforming...you're not entitled to freedom, you have to earn it. What the actual fuck has happened to these people or have they always had an air of authority they feel the need to thrust on others?

All this for a jab that isn't very effective. If it was very effective and the virus had a high death toll then there might be more of an argument but neither are the case.

I am far more frightened of these people and their severe dictatorial tendencies than I am of Covid.

FlickerBeat · 01/12/2021 13:17

Needle phobia? Give me a break. It takes nano seconds literally nano seconds to be vaccinated

Fucking hell, get over yourself. Do you really think it's that easy for people?

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 01/12/2021 13:25

How come those of us with a needle phobia seem to be fair game? Do those posters who think it's OK to have a go do this to any other form of mental illness?

I somehow managed to have my first two vaccines only thanks to the the patience of DH and the kindness of those at the vaccine centres. I was taken to the front of the queue, able to lay down to have the jabs and DH was able to stay with me the whole time and give my details etc as I was struggling to speak. I dread coming across people like some posters, although I'm sure they aren't as brave in real life as when they can hide behind a keyboard.

rainrainraincamedowndowndown · 01/12/2021 14:14

All this for a jab that isn't very effective. If it was very effective and the virus had a high death toll then there might be more of an argument but neither are the case.

I can't believe some of the posts I read on MN too. Vaccines are effective, otherwise many more people would be dying. It saved/saving many lives. Also death toll is high, how many are dead, or dying every day in UK, around the world?

rainrainraincamedowndowndown · 01/12/2021 14:18

The fines are used to fund the health care service, so it's not really punishing them for not getting vaccinated, more like making sure there is health care available when they are ill with covid, which is more likely to be true if you are unvaccinated and elderly.

MaxNormal · 01/12/2021 15:03

The state pension is 700 euros a month. They'll be ill with malnutrition in the first instance.

rainrainraincamedowndowndown · 01/12/2021 15:20

They are more likely to die of covid than malnutrition, I assume?

BamboozledandBefuddled · 01/12/2021 15:21

@MaxNormal

The state pension is 700 euros a month. They'll be ill with malnutrition in the first instance.
Some posters won't have a problem with that, as long as people starve quietly in their own homes and don't expect medical treatment.
rainrainraincamedowndowndown · 01/12/2021 15:34

Bamboozled, don't you think elderly people who are not vaccinated are misinformed and ignorant? Vaccine may save their lives, but just leave them alone? I think there's no difference in forcing them to make a choice to get vaccinated, and letting them quietly starve on their own. At least the gov is doing something to save their lives, when so many are dying unnecessarily.

FflosFfantastig · 01/12/2021 15:36

@Weepingash

I can't believe some of the posts I read on MN. I read one the other day saying that their hope was that all the unvaccinated get Covid and die..that'll serve them right and get rid of some idiots in this country.

Fining people for not being jabbed.. So the poor would have no choice then?

You can almost hear the glee in the posts... We should punish people for not conforming...you're not entitled to freedom, you have to earn it. What the actual fuck has happened to these people or have they always had an air of authority they feel the need to thrust on others?

All this for a jab that isn't very effective. If it was very effective and the virus had a high death toll then there might be more of an argument but neither are the case.

I am far more frightened of these people and their severe dictatorial tendencies than I am of Covid.

@Weepingash it's baying mob mentality. They're mad keen to dictate to others what they should do. I would be concerned about seeking help for what was wrong with me if I had such a lack of basic empathy and understanding that's shown in the type of postings on this forum. People are unable to look at things from anything other than their own point of view, and completely unable to discuss things and say - ok this is my point of view, but I see that we aren't all in the same set of circumstances and I can see that we aren't all going to look at the same information and reach the same decision. There's something very wrong that many lack such basic skills. Something has gone very wrong.
Battenburg77 · 01/12/2021 15:40

@rainrainraincamedowndowndown

Bamboozled, don't you think elderly people who are not vaccinated are misinformed and ignorant? Vaccine may save their lives, but just leave them alone? I think there's no difference in forcing them to make a choice to get vaccinated, and letting them quietly starve on their own. At least the gov is doing something to save their lives, when so many are dying unnecessarily.
If your argument is that it's better to force vaccination on them to *potentially* save their lives (remember the large majority of over 70s survive) then it's a very flawed one.

We don't force chemotherapy on people with terminal cancer with threat of fines, even if they are almost certain to die without it.

That's because it's one of their fundamental rights to decide what goes into their bodies and what doesn't.

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