What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is...

[CanadianJohn]

What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is how malevolent some of them are. If I decided I didn't want a covid jab, I certainly wouldn't picket hospitals and health centres. Recently an elected legislator in Manitoba faced a demonstration of about 30 people at her home, and someone left a noose on her lawn. www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/health/alberta-politician-angry-after-covid-19-protesters-leave-gallows-noose-at-her-house-575661242.html

A recent news story on booster jabs provoked dozens of responses poking fun at "sheeple" and referencing Big Phama and similar themes.

Why are so many people so vitriolic about the vaccine?

There’s nothing s no need to picket health centres or demonstrate by leaving nooses on people’s lawns though, which is what the thread is about, we need to live and let live with all our decisions. This is not really helping the anti-vax agenda, it just serves to make them all look like loons.

The thing I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is that they tend to be anti-masks, ventilation and any measures to stop covid transmission.

If we had more of those measures, it would be safer to be unvaccinated and probably more people wouldn't, so I just don't get it. The main reason I got the vaccine is because I knew exposure to covid from my kids in school was going to be crazy high, and so it is.

Anti-vaxxers seem to complain about the vaccine roll out and simultaneously want to create an environment in which the risk / benefit of getting the vaccine swings massively towards the vaccine because it's almost inevitable that you'll catch covid eventually as rates are so high and there are no mitigations.

(Oh and the NHS is falling over and you have to wait for an hour for an ambulance etc)

It's sad reading about the anti vaxers in Australia they are begging for the vaccine when they come in sick

@theemperorhasnoclothes

The thing I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is that they tend to be anti-masks, ventilation and any measures to stop covid transmission.

If we had more of those measures, it would be safer to be unvaccinated and probably more people wouldn't, so I just don't get it. The main reason I got the vaccine is because I knew exposure to covid from my kids in school was going to be crazy high, and so it is.

Anti-vaxxers seem to complain about the vaccine roll out and simultaneously want to create an environment in which the risk / benefit of getting the vaccine swings massively towards the vaccine because it's almost inevitable that you'll catch covid eventually as rates are so high and there are no mitigations.

It makes perfect sense. Not necessarily for the placard waving freeeedom chanter man or woman in the street, but certainly it makes sense when it comes to the source of anti vaxx. Several top figures behind the anti vaxx propaganda have links to the far right. And as we all know, the far right has long flirted with eugenics.

Talk about conspiracy theories

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power

It was your eugenics comment I was responding to. Do you seriously believe that?

blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2021/07/23/covid-eugenics-health-based-discrimination/

Old article from last year but still very well worth a read.

www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/4/14/coronavirus-herd-immunity-and-the-eugenics-of-the-market

Which part of that article supports your assertion that anti-vaxxers are being led by the far right as part of a eugenics campaign?

You're misinterpretating what I said.

Nevermind.

Several far right figures are associated with anti vaxx propaganda. Given the history of the far right and its beliefs - which include eugenics, it's not a wild leap to wonder about their intentions. Particularly since, as well as anti vaxx, there's a strong support amongst many in these groups for 'herd immunity' aka 'let the bodies pile up'.

Of course it could be purely coincidence.

@Tealightsandd

Several far right figures are associated with anti vaxx propaganda. Given the history of the far right and its beliefs - which include eugenics, it's not a wild leap to wonder about their intentions. Particularly since, as well as anti vaxx, there's a strong support amongst many in these groups for 'herd immunity' aka 'let the bodies pile up'.

Of course it could be purely coincidence.

No, I agree, @Tealightsandd. I remember the ageist, disablist threads early on discussing shutting away the elderly, the sick and the disabled, and allowing everyone else to 'get on with life'. This was well before vaccines. A certain amount of death? Acceptable. I also remember the threads discussing the the value of elderly people vs. children, and what children have given up for the elderly. These would then go into "my grandma is 75 - she would give up her last years to see my child this Christmas!" Bollocks. Grandma could have another 15 years left to live. These threads all smelled of eugenics.

Oh, and it's most predictable that on this thread we have the Covid minimisers coming in to say 'the pro-vaxers have been ever so mean to us!'

Thanks @Tealightsandd. Interesting articles. The PP who mentioned why those not in favour of vax, also seem to minimise impact of covid and any measures to help protect those that can't be protected by vaccines - even objecting to things like ventilation - I’ve wondered about this too. I think you're right in that lack of protective measures has made it a decision of get infected naturally vs get vaccinated, which again seems an odd position to force if you are anti vax. It seems odd not to push for other measures to reduce risk so that vaccine hesitant have a genuine choice. They also seem to have a total bee in their bonnet about obesity, but ignore things like being black as a higher risk factor than obesity. They push for natural infection, whilst ignoring long term impacts of that.

There was a teenager hospitalised and Hart or UsforThem were wanting her to speak out about the vaccination harms - she hadn't been vaccinated. It was an (understandable) tragedy if it was from vaccination - if it meant a protective measure to avoid other kids going through the same, that was too much though - even though thousands of kids have been hospitalised and they describe themselves as advocates for kids.

It's interesting that in real life, most have opted for the vaccine. Of those that have chosen not to/can't be/still trying to get vaccinated, a teeny teeny (but vocal) minority are still minimising covid and trying to prevent others from getting vaccinated. The real number of proper anti vax loons (as opposed to someone just choosing not to be vaxed) is therefore obviously miniscule, but harmful and active.

If you look up #Hartleaks, there’s a range of info linking the covid disinfo groups - high up funding also linked to climate change denial. Byline Times has published various articles on these disinformation groups and their links to govt covid policy. Even the BBC published an article on UsforThem and their anti vax links.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.bbc.com/news/health-58783711

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=bylinetimes.com/2021/10/01/inside-the-radicalised-anti-vaxxer-network-influencing-government-vaccine-advisory-panel/

@FakingMemories "people feel it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest that if someone who refused the vaxx gets COVID they should be refused medical treatment and death being wished upon them. Interesting that the same is not wished upon smokers, drinkers, the obese, drug addicts, people who participate in extreme sports, de etc".

@Fridafever "It is though, people say this all the time, lots of arseholes about sadly".

At one point there was anger that obese people were prioritised for the vaccine!

@Songoftheseas

I think a lot of people have gone completely mad, whether pro or anti vaccine. I am constantly amazed at how vitriolic someone can be towards others who have made a different choice from them.

I am single vaccinated, was reluctant to get even the first due to worries about safety and then had a terrible reaction to it (Pfizer). I am not an anti vaxxer (have had all my other immunisations) and respect other people’s choices.

I’m in the same boat but with AZ.

I only had it as I wanted to return to work at some point.

I’m under neurology due to what happened to me after the vaccine, will not be having a second due to the lasting complications of the first (people have said I should try for an exemption, but so far, no consultant so far is willing to stick their neck on the line and say it’s a direct cause of the vaccine, even though they have all said off record that my problem has been seen after the AZ, it’s infuriating).

So no second jab can’t return to work, no exemption can’t return to work and the symptoms I have currently would make it quite difficult to do 12 hour shifts anyway. So I’m well and truly shafted on that front.

@FakingMemories but those other people you mentioned (smokers, addicts, etc) are not putting anyone else at risk.

Anti-vaxxers (or biohazards, as I prefer to call them) very much are putting other people's health at risk.

I feel vaccines are a personal choice. I readily has vaccine as did dd1.
I did not attempt to sway dd 1 as I accept it is s personal choice.

I also accept that certain people I know are anti vax. Their choice too but when said people are trying to,argue that kids are dying because of vaccine and citing cases of 11 year olds than it steps too far..

@MrsCardone would you call me a biohazard as I won’t be having a second due to ongoing complications?

I’m just wondering how people view me. I don’t know many people, but sadly, the few I did have since pulled back from me since. It’s a difficult situation to be in.

I was reluctant in the first place, but ultimately I needed to be vaccinated to return to work. When I was in hospital after the vaccine, my SIL was very hurtful and said I deserved what happened as I only had it reluctantly She won’t speak to me as she thinks I should have the 2nd, even though I’m still having regular appointments to try and stop the effects of the first. I just feel like I can’t win either way!

No, I agree, @Tealightsandd. I remember the ageist, disablist threads early on discussing shutting away the elderly, the sick and the disabled, and allowing everyone else to 'get on with life'. This was well before vaccines

And what’s the alternative? Focussed protection allows the healthy to live as normally as possible while protecting the vulnerable.

The economy can’t be turned on and off like a light switch. And people depend on a healthy economy for their very lives.

A certain amount of death? Acceptable

Unavoidable, you should say.

I also remember the threads discussing the the value of elderly people vs. children, and what children have given up for the elderly. These would then go into "my grandma is 75 - she would give up her last years to see my child this Christmas!" Bollocks. Grandma could have another 15 years left to live. These threads all smelled of eugenics

That’s Grandma’s decision to make, not the government. Why do you think random public health authorities should get to determine whether Grandma gets to see her grandkids?

If the world governments had said "sorry we're not going to buy, distribute and administer the vaccine, we've decided to just let those that catch it brave it out and a large portion of you will die."
Would the anti vaxers be OK with this decision or up in arms!

@saleorbouy

If the world governments had said "sorry we're not going to buy, distribute and administer the vaccine, we've decided to just let those that catch it brave it out and a large portion of you will die." Would the anti vaxers be OK with this decision or up in arms!

Isn’t it about choice? Get it if you want, stop pushing it on those who don’t. It’s a great product for those who need it, which is not every last fucking person on earth.

Besides, concerning COVID, aren’t rich countries doing this anyway by jabbing teens and young healthy people with it while vulnerable people abroad are dying?

It’s really, really weird, people who normally care about equity suddenly don’t want to know.

(I got jabbed for my job with lots of travel, I don’t want any more boosters and really want off this treadmill)

I remember the ageist, disablist threads early on discussing shutting away the elderly, the sick and the disabled, and allowing everyone else to 'get on with life'.

Eugenics? Why would they be suggesting that those groups be ‘shut away’ to protect them if they wanted them dead?

Anti-vaxxers (or biohazards, as I prefer to call them) very much are putting other people's health at risk.

Even if they aren’t infected with the virus/are already immune? How silly. What do you call an infected vaccinated person?