What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is...

[CanadianJohn]

What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is how malevolent some of them are. If I decided I didn't want a covid jab, I certainly wouldn't picket hospitals and health centres. Recently an elected legislator in Manitoba faced a demonstration of about 30 people at her home, and someone left a noose on her lawn. www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/health/alberta-politician-angry-after-covid-19-protesters-leave-gallows-noose-at-her-house-575661242.html

A recent news story on booster jabs provoked dozens of responses poking fun at "sheeple" and referencing Big Phama and similar themes.

Why are so many people so vitriolic about the vaccine?

The messenger type of vaccine has been tested on humans for over ten years. Mice since the 90’s and researched since the 60’s/70’s.

No vaccine for a coronavirus has ever been rolled out to humans before (previous attempts had serious issues). The mRNA technology has never been implemented for an infectious agent before. The coded-for protein has never before been a virus spike protein (and we now know the spike protein is in itself harmful).
So there remains plenty of potential for unseen long term harm with these jabs. The benefits may absolutely outweigh the harms (certainly in some groups). Be we do NOT know this yet, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.

Squleamish, yeah, obviously so many people being alive not dead by taking vaccine is not worse taking risk then. Don't take the risk, you don't need to, if you don't want to.

@Squleamish There is no proof that spike proteins created in response to mRNA vaccines are harmful to the body, if you have evidence…post it here. This is my main pet peeve with ‘anti-vax’ rhetoric, that people post these claims but do not back them up with detailed research or links. It’s disingenuous to do so. Please quote your sources.

But it's not a vaccine.
A vaccine give you full immunity, look it up.
This one does not stop you getting ill, it encorages your body to prep in case you contract Covid, hence why so many top ups.
We also have no idea how many people have had mild covid that was a different strain to the jab given.
Every 100 years a plague comes around that wipes out those with weak immunities and this is our plague.

A vaccine give you full immunity, look it up.

Do the vaccine that gives you full(100%) immunity exist?

@Bollindger please link to where it states it’s not a vaccine.

But @donquixotedelamancha, the vaccines cannot lead to herd immunity. This has been stated now even by the most mainstream, vaccine-enthusiastic of scientists and politicians. We were told at one stage that they would (when we were told - mistakenly - that they would prevent most cases), but it simply can't be the case when people who've had the jab readily get and pass on the virus

Yes and no. Nobody who understood the science thought there was much chance of getting sterilising, long term immunity at any point in the pandemic. I said that on here from early on.

You can get a kind of herd immunity by having enough of the population vaccinated to get the R number below one.

This would involve a very high uptake (possibly still some public health measures over winter) and vaccine boosters ever 6 months or so but it's possibly doable and it's still the goal in some regions.

Some variation on this, to reduce the spread and impact, is the only reason I can think to pay people to vaccinate.

You are right that this is not strictly herd immunity in the usual sense, I was being imprecise.

@Bollindger

But it's not a vaccine. A vaccine give you full immunity, look it up. This one does not stop you getting ill, it encorages your body to prep in case you contract Covid, hence why so many top ups. We also have no idea how many people have had mild covid that was a different strain to the jab given. Every 100 years a plague comes around that wipes out those with weak immunities and this is our plague.

Like the flu vaccine you mean.

Oh wait

Since when has giving people grief for not getting the vaccine actually convinced them to get it?

I agree, I'm just explaining why people get irate.

@Bollindger

But it's not a vaccine. A vaccine give you full immunity, look it up. This one does not stop you getting ill, it encorages your body to prep in case you contract Covid, hence why so many top ups. We also have no idea how many people have had mild covid that was a different strain to the jab given. Every 100 years a plague comes around that wipes out those with weak immunities and this is our plague.

Do you consider the MMR vaccine a vaccine?

@donquixotedelamancha

But *@donquixotedelamancha*, the vaccines cannot lead to herd immunity. This has been stated now even by the most mainstream, vaccine-enthusiastic of scientists and politicians. We were told at one stage that they would (when we were told - mistakenly - that they would prevent most cases), but it simply can't be the case when people who've had the jab readily get and pass on the virus

Yes and no. Nobody who understood the science thought there was much chance of getting sterilising, long term immunity at any point in the pandemic. I said that on here from early on.

You can get a kind of herd immunity by having enough of the population vaccinated to get the R number below one.

This would involve a very high uptake (possibly still some public health measures over winter) and vaccine boosters ever 6 months or so but it's possibly doable and it's still the goal in some regions.

Some variation on this, to reduce the spread and impact, is the only reason I can think to pay people to vaccinate.

You are right that this is not strictly herd immunity in the usual sense, I was being imprecise.

Fair enough, @donquixotedelamancha. My understanding is that even the most optimistic estimates of impact on transmission preclude any meaningful steps towards herd immunity now, but I do agree there are different possible definitions of the term.

I have a vague recollection of William Shakespeare (one of the first vaccinated) correcting the interviewer when they called it a vaccine

@winterisaroundthecorner

Squleamish, yeah, obviously so many people being alive not dead by taking vaccine is not worse taking risk then. Don't take the risk, you don't need to, if you don't want to.

Er, what?! I was saying that it's quite possible (and for some groups very likely) that the risk of taking the vaccine is absolutely worth it. All I was arguing is that we really don't know this in full yet, and won't for a good while.

@Squleamish

The messenger type of vaccine has been tested on humans for over ten years. Mice since the 90’s and researched since the 60’s/70’s.

No vaccine for a coronavirus has ever been rolled out to humans before (previous attempts had serious issues). The mRNA technology has never been implemented for an infectious agent before. The coded-for protein has never before been a virus spike protein (and we now know the spike protein is in itself harmful).
So there remains plenty of potential for unseen long term harm with these jabs. The benefits may absolutely outweigh the harms (certainly in some groups). Be we do NOT know this yet, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.

I chose my words carefully. I didn’t call it a coronavirus vaccine. I said the messenger type vaccine has been tested on humans before.

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@Squleamish There is no proof that spike proteins created in response to mRNA vaccines are harmful to the body, if you have evidence…post it here. This is my main pet peeve with ‘anti-vax’ rhetoric, that people post these claims but do not back them up with detailed research or links. It’s disingenuous to do so. Please quote your sources.[/quote]
Well, first of all I never said that spike from mRNA was harmful - I said we know that spike is. If you'd like some good discussion of this, you can go to Google Scholar and start by searching for "thrombogenic" and "spike". There are too many papers addressing this to pick one. However, we do now know from biodistribution studies that the spike protein production is not limited to the injection site. So we know that we have a potential toxin being produced around the body. Maybe that doesn't matter much in the longer term. Maybe it does. We don't know. We do know that in the short term there's the possibility of cardiovascular problems - but these are rare. Long term implications are simply not known.

Fair enough, @EvilPea. But then you'll see how that can only be reassuring to a certain extent, because there are many differences.

The vaccine debate has caused huge division everywhere and I think it's ridiculous if you want to be vaccinated go ahead if you don't then you don't ,there is no right or wrong it's a choice and you live with the consequences of your choice .

Yes @Tittyfilarious81 - absolutely agree.

@Hodl

I'm double vaxxed, actually I've just booked my booster BUT I'm firmly against vaccine passports etc. I've seen the protests against this both here and in other countries. A lot of people labelled as anti vaxxers are actually protesting about vax passports and so on. Surely it would be better to look at whether someone has covid antibodies rather than just insisting they have a jab?

FWIW as I've been jabbed I'm not bothered about coming into contact with unvaccinated people, I don't understand the angst over this.

You can still catch, spread and get seriously ill from covid regardless of how many jabs you've had. I know a number of people personally who are getting ill with covid even though they're double jabbed

My understanding is that even the most optimistic estimates of impact on transmission preclude any meaningful steps towards herd immunity now

That may be true, I'm not as up to date as I was. Theoretically the drop in transmission is enough to just be possible but I'm aware it's proving very hard indeed to achieve on a country scale- even Israel hasn't managed it.

Perhaps New York thinks they can get a high enough rate within their small population to make it work? Perhaps they think the drop in R is good enough to be worth it with other PH measures? Perhaps it's just about cutting disruption to schools?

The Venn diagram with Brexiteers is almost a circle...

@Squleamish erm…I think you did. ‘’The coded-for protein has never before been a virus spike protein (and we now know the spike protein is in itself harmful)’’
I think it’s important to back everything you say with some links and evidence because a lot of people spout a lot of made up shite on these forums.

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@Squleamish erm…I think you did. ‘’The coded-for protein has never before been a virus spike protein (and we now know the spike protein is in itself harmful)’’
I think it’s important to back everything you say with some links and evidence because a lot of people spout a lot of made up shite on these forums.[/quote]
Ha, well I beg to differ (I said the spike protein - didn't specify origins), but this is just pedantic really.
In any case, there is plenty of evidence that spike has a strong role to play when Covid infection gets nasty. And there is also certainly heavy circumstantial evidence that the spike protein as coded by the mRNA jabs can be toxic (it very likely has a role when adverse reactions - including clots - occur). How often its effects are malign after the jab is debatable, and it may be the lesser evil when compared with effects of covid. But the point is, when people are unsure about the vaccine, there are sometimes good reasons for this. People weigh up the risks and uncertainties of Covid and the jabs in different ways, the equation is very different for different people, and this is far from straightforward as a decision for many people.

And yes - people do indeed spout shit - in all directions (both pro- and anti- the vaccine, for example).

I find the views of the 'get the vaccine you thicko' types just as disconcerting as the hardcore antivax crowd. Do these people understand that for some, getting the vaccine will be more or less life ending? I'm a member of some ME/CFS groups because I'm a carer, and the plight of some of some on those groups is grim. People already severely disabled and suffering more than you or I could ever imagine, knew in their heart that the vax would cause huge issues, allowed themselves to be pressured by family and friends and medical professionals and have ended up months on barely existing, have lost the use of their legs etc. Few suicides in the groups too. Thing is, for some people, they feel the vaccine isn't good for them, and some of those people will be 100% right. They are not 'antivaxxers' in the picketing, qanon, shouty conspiracists sense of the word, but are being lumped in as such by the 'just get the vax' lot who don't understand the potential fallout for someone with severe CFS, for example.

@Callcat

I find the views of the 'get the vaccine you thicko' types just as disconcerting as the hardcore antivax crowd. Do these people understand that for some, getting the vaccine will be more or less life ending? I'm a member of some ME/CFS groups because I'm a carer, and the plight of some of some on those groups is grim. People already severely disabled and suffering more than you or I could ever imagine, knew in their heart that the vax would cause huge issues, allowed themselves to be pressured by family and friends and medical professionals and have ended up months on barely existing, have lost the use of their legs etc. Few suicides in the groups too. Thing is, for some people, they feel the vaccine isn't good for them, and some of those people will be 100% right. They are not 'antivaxxers' in the picketing, qanon, shouty conspiracists sense of the word, but are being lumped in as such by the 'just get the vax' lot who don't understand the potential fallout for someone with severe CFS, for example.

Very much agree @Callcat.

I also have some experience with CFS/ME, and have known people in the positions your describing.