Plan C to ban household mixing being discussed.

[MercyBooth]

Absolute fuckers.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10113747/Covid-UK-Ministers-discussing-banning-households-mixing-booster-jabs-dont-halt-winter-wave.html?fbclid=IwAR1iNfWAFoAJywK8_wUyX04mCsqh3WKDg4ywZjme6fs5I9xqx5r_ppFwSXU

@TheVampiresWife

It is also highly discriminatory to impose restrictions such as vaccine passports

It may be, if venues which require them take the law into their own hands and refuse entry to those who cannot have vaccinations for medical reasons. There have been assurances that this won't happen but the discrimination against mask exempt people sadly shows that for many, the law is free to interpret as they see fit.

Of course everyone should be vaccinated, if they're able. But just like mask wearing, not everyone is.

I think in countries which have passes, there are exemptions for those unable to be vaccinated (but as pp has explained- it's not a vaccine= pass anyway, but a vaccine/negative test/letter of recovery=pass) The big problem with mask exemptions is you only have to read posts on here "if they bring them back I'm getting a lanyard" to see that genuinely exempt people are being done a huge disservice by pretend exempts.

I heard on the radio (2?) Yesterday that if you had the original strain of covid and was doubled vaxxed you have the strongest immunity.

We dont know the exact science and wont for years but it could be possible. So much unknown.

But it's almost November and no mandatory masks or distancing when that would cost nothing to bring back.

So if they said mid dec no household mixing its serious, very grave, death is hoovering over the population. Would you feel them same as you did last year knowing that you can mix with covid in your house, wearing no masks as deaths rise and cramming into venues.

I can honestly see why people would ignore it. Not saying I would but potentially dh could be not allowed to see his dad but go to work and sit in a office maskless knowing he was cleaning up his covid offspring the night before

We arent being cautious with extremely close contacts so again, I csnt come back from that. I know there is covid 24 7 in my house and it's all good to carry on and mix. But dont see your mum in case one of you may have it?

I can see way people would ignore the rules

But it's almost November and no mandatory masks or distancing when that would cost nothing to bring back

Thing is though, they do cost. Social distancing means whole industries can't operate at a profit, or at all - hospitality particularly. A pub with a 300 capacity can't break even on a capacity of 100. Things like theatres, particularly smaller ones, can't open. SD isn't just keeping 2m apart in the Tesco queue. Also, masks are not compatible with nightclubs or music venues.

The cost to businesses already on their knees would be catastrophic if SD were reintroduced during their busiest period of the year, especially as that revenue was lost last year. Worth remembering too that there's no furlough any more, so staff laid off as a result of being unable to open or loss of revenue would have no income other than UC, if they qualify. And that takes five weeks to come through, at the very least.

And don't forget that mandatory social distancing forbids household mixing anyway.

I suppose bringing in measures that would definitely hit the hospitality industry the hardest have to be weighed up against risking an even stricter restriction like forced closure.
I dunno.
Lots of things need to be considered, it's just that we've got Boris considering them which doesn't bode well given his track record and own contempt for people.

@TheVampiresWife

But it's almost November and no mandatory masks or distancing when that would cost nothing to bring back

Thing is though, they do cost. Social distancing means whole industries can't operate at a profit, or at all - hospitality particularly. A pub with a 300 capacity can't break even on a capacity of 100. Things like theatres, particularly smaller ones, can't open. SD isn't just keeping 2m apart in the Tesco queue. Also, masks are not compatible with nightclubs or music venues.

The cost to businesses already on their knees would be catastrophic if SD were reintroduced during their busiest period of the year, especially as that revenue was lost last year. Worth remembering too that there's no furlough any more, so staff laid off as a result of being unable to open or loss of revenue would have no income other than UC, if they qualify. And that takes five weeks to come through, at the very least.

Exactly! And even if places can operate at less capacity a lot will chose not to as won't be worth it and close. So many places closed for good last time round. Especially with Christmas trade happening soon and all.

But if the rates get to the point where it is more than likely that quite a few people in a pub/restaurant have COVID would that make some people consider they don't want to go unless there is some mitigation in place. The rates are really high where I live so I am being cautious, and coming up to Christmas if I want to meet with family I won't be socialising beforehand with many other people just in case I get COVID and can't then see family (might feel differently if I had recently had COVID)

[quote Lostinacloud]Figures are from sky news this morning but that’s all they gave despite the headline being ‘unvaccinated figures in hospitals released’
I’d also love to know the figures for other age groups.

It did say that 88% of over 80’s in hospital are double vaccinated and that was apparently to be expected.

news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-nhs-in-cornwall-declares-critical-incident-as-number-of-global-health-worker-deaths-revealed-12431158[/quote]
Isn't the vaccination rate in over 80s something like 97%? If so, 88% indicates that the 12% in hospitals without a vaccine come from the 3% who've not been vaccinated, so broadly speaking, hospital numbers would be 4 times higher without vaccinations based on current cases, and given that cases would be far higher (as the vaccine is about 50% effective at stopping spread), infections amongst over 80s would be far greater than they currently are, and that number would be far greater. In short, if we tried to exist with the current lack of restrictions before vaccines, we'd be looking at enormous hospitalisation levels.

“ Unvaccinated 20 year olds have little to do with it. “ @Lostinacloud

What complete and utter bollocks.

Unvaccinated people are more likely to contract Covid (whether or not they become very ill with it) and therefore more likely to spread it. The fact that they are younger means that symptoms are likely to be less severe, and therefore more likely to be dismissed as a cold. This leaves those unvaccinated more likely to continue with their everyday activities and therefore more likely to spread it to others.
They get on the bus, sit next to vaccinated 85 year old Granny and boom she’s in ICU and your unvaccinated 20 year old has nothing to do with it.
As I said, bollocks.

@Warhertisuff

The report says 88% of 80 year olds in hospital are double vaccinated. That is not the same as 88% of those in hospital.
12% of 80 year olds in hospital with Covid are not vaccinated., not 12% of all of those in hospital.

In fact, between December 2020 and July 2021, 84% of admissions for Covid were unvaccinated. Later figures are not reported: www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2306

“You’re killing Granny” is a bit out of date now @IrisAtwood, Granny’s had her vaccine!

If the above can never be accepted, when are we ever getting out of this crap? Vaccines were the way out weren’t they? What else needs to happen?

@IrisAtwood and of course the figure of unvaccinated was that high between December 2020 and July 2021, most people in the country were not considered fully vaccinated between those dates! Mass rollout of the vaccines only really kicked into gear around March time and with a 3 month gap between doses, that means the earliest most groups were fully vaccinated with 2 doses was June time.
Where are the figures July 2021-Oct 2021?

@IrisAtwood

“ Unvaccinated 20 year olds have little to do with it. “ *@Lostinacloud*

What complete and utter bollocks.

Unvaccinated people are more likely to contract Covid (whether or not they become very ill with it) and therefore more likely to spread it. The fact that they are younger means that symptoms are likely to be less severe, and therefore more likely to be dismissed as a cold. This leaves those unvaccinated more likely to continue with their everyday activities and therefore more likely to spread it to others.
They get on the bus, sit next to vaccinated 85 year old Granny and boom she’s in ICU and your unvaccinated 20 year old has nothing to do with it.
As I said, bollocks.

Vaccinated people can spread it to 85 year old granny too. I caught Covid from my vaccinated colleague. Anyone can pass Covid on and put someone in ICU. Stop trying to guilt trip people, it's boring now.

@Lostinacloud

“You’re killing Granny” is a bit out of date now *@IrisAtwood*, Granny’s had her vaccine!

If the above can never be accepted, when are we ever getting out of this crap? Vaccines were the way out weren’t they? What else needs to happen?

Fun fact.

Death rates are below normal rates for this time of year in the over 65s at the moment.

They are up to 7% higher than normal in the next age groups down.

That probably reflects lower vaccination rates and the fact that the most vulnerable in older groups have already died.

So yes it might not be about killing grannie this Christmas - although most deaths are still in the oldest groups. They are due their boosters first.

However we might be in a position where it is more appropriate to say about killing Mum or Dad in their 50s who aren't getting their booster til January at this rate.

Our council have published the local rates per 100,000 in school children. Its close to 2000 per 100,000 (and thats the ones who have done PCRs and tested positive). Its over 900 per 100,000 in the next age group - the 40 to 49 year olds.

However that rate in children is only sustainable for a relatively short period because once the kids have had it, it should plummet as immunity in the population increases. So I do think its worth pointing out that vaccines are working and there is a ceiling limit on cases (and therefore hospitalisations and deaths although this ceiling is affected by waning immunity). Its a question of how far exactly we are from the peak in school children. I do know of a local school who had a huge outbreak in September before other schools in the area. They have now peaked and have had no cases in a week. So I would tentatively say that we should start seeing signs of a peak in schools some areas soon. But other places who are later to the party are the ones who should worry heading into party season.

I do think the finite pool of the unvaccinated is being overlooked by those pushing for restrictions hardest.

Throughout the pandemic its shown up that its not just actions but timing of them that matters. I would argue that counterintuitively rates may not continue to race skywards in many places for too much longer.

@TheVampiresWife

But it's almost November and no mandatory masks or distancing when that would cost nothing to bring back

Thing is though, they do cost. Social distancing means whole industries can't operate at a profit, or at all - hospitality particularly. A pub with a 300 capacity can't break even on a capacity of 100. Things like theatres, particularly smaller ones, can't open. SD isn't just keeping 2m apart in the Tesco queue. Also, masks are not compatible with nightclubs or music venues.

The cost to businesses already on their knees would be catastrophic if SD were reintroduced during their busiest period of the year, especially as that revenue was lost last year. Worth remembering too that there's no furlough any more, so staff laid off as a result of being unable to open or loss of revenue would have no income other than UC, if they qualify. And that takes five weeks to come through, at the very least.

But people will be forced to claim benefits because of long term health issues caused by Covid in addition to the increased costs of treating sick people in hospital if we don’t act.

The government will make decisions based on what will cost them the most - and I include the emotional cost on voters in that too. Will the unemployed theatre-worker outplay a queue of people lined up waiting to access hospital care in a DM story? From working in a school, I can assure you that the government have no interest in the individual so you’d better hope the hospitality industry brings in more than Covid will cost if it is allowed to run wild. It’s a Tory government and they like businesses so you MIGHT be in luck.

Our school (secondary) has peaked @RedToothBrush It was awful in September, calmed down throughout October, but I know primary schools in the area are really struggling right now.

But people will be forced to claim benefits because of long term health issues caused by Covid in addition to the increased costs of treating sick people in hospital if we don’t act

Potentially hundreds of thousands of people losing their livelihoods and the resultant poverty, and the knock-on effect on health and poor Covid outcomes, is just as worrying. If not, more so.

The 'unemployed theatre worker' may spiral into debt while they wait for UC to come through, if they're even eligible for it. Poverty and poor health - both physical and mental - go hand in hand. Their family will be directly affected. Times that by several hundred thousand and you can see the huge, huge hardship that closing hospitality again would cause - or even introducing SD, so venues are unable to open, thereby closing them indirectly.

The cost to the government of out of work benefits, FSMs, the increased health care bill and so on will far exceed the cost in long covid care. And what's to say that those affected won't catch covid anyway? People don't just catch it in pubs and nightclubs. Infection rates were sky high even when hospitality was closed. So the cost of covid/long covid care would still be an issue, on top of everything else.

The Scottish schools went back earlier and were slammed it's tailed off now. Wales schools are starting to fall.

I read Victoria where they've recently opened up 1750 cases over the weekend. They pushed the can down the road. Spanish flu ebbed and flowed from 1918 -1922 four years. At least we're more aware now. Friends husband went to Portugal on a golfing break with the lads, they all caught it have given it to their families, so it's gonna keep going

@TheVampiresWife

But people will be forced to claim benefits because of long term health issues caused by Covid in addition to the increased costs of treating sick people in hospital if we don’t act

Potentially hundreds of thousands of people losing their livelihoods and the resultant poverty, and the knock-on effect on health and poor Covid outcomes, is just as worrying. If not, more so.

The 'unemployed theatre worker' may spiral into debt while they wait for UC to come through, if they're even eligible for it. Poverty and poor health - both physical and mental - go hand in hand. Their family will be directly affected. Times that by several hundred thousand and you can see the huge, huge hardship that closing hospitality again would cause - or even introducing SD, so venues are unable to open, thereby closing them indirectly.

The cost to the government of out of work benefits, FSMs, the increased health care bill and so on will far exceed the cost in long covid care. And what's to say that those affected won't catch covid anyway? People don't just catch it in pubs and nightclubs. Infection rates were sky high even when hospitality was closed. So the cost of covid/long covid care would still be an issue, on top of everything else.

I am not sure it will but I am glad I’m not making the decision. The government seem keen to privatise the NHS (so this is a good way to frighten us into it) but I don’t think they could survive photos of bodies in temporary morgues and old folk dying in hospital waiting rooms appearing. Yes, unemployed lighting technician Jo and his young family would be equally sad on a human level but it’s not got the visual impact.

What a mess. ‘Freedom Day’ (yuck) seems like a bigger joke than ever now.