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Covid

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OP posts:
Dippydinosaurus · 21/10/2021 10:07

Also the NHS has a serious staffing problem. My DS is a nurse and she says it's awful at the moment. Nothing to do with covid, just low staffing in general. My friend said there was a 6 hour waiting time at A&E a few days ago. If the NHS is overwhelmed it isn't just covid. This is the government not properly funding the NHS so we'll have to miss seeing our families AGAIN because they can't get it sorted

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 21/10/2021 10:09

Definitely noticing repeat infections, including in adults who have been fully vaccinated. Someone on another thread told me we weren’t including reinfections on the daily case list numbers. Does anyone know if that is still the case and why we don’t, why?

Thewiseoneincognito · 21/10/2021 10:10

@RedToothBrush

I think the thing is, if you have friends or relatives who are due their booster but haven't had it, you might be wise to avoid your unvaccinated family members from mixing with them and even if you are vaccinated, if you do meet them you'd be wise to do it outside

Without the need for government to tell you what you want to do.

Starting now.

If you have a general problem with that and are saying 'but I'm expected to for work and its just not fair' then you seriously need to have a word with yourself for sounding like a child.

Minimising contact indoors with those who might be more vulnerable where possible is a pretty sensible approach for everyone. As much as it sucks. Mainly cos you don't want to be a twat and put them at risk.

Christmas is going to be a bloody car crash on here because the booster jabs are so far behind where they should be. The only hope is that it does start to settle down in schools by then because the kids have all had it. But I'm not optimistic about that.

The big take homes from me reading this excellent twitter thread from John Burn-Murdoch on why the UK has so many cases

twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1449801652207239176

were that

  • our immunity is waning quicker and we are giving boosters slower than most of western europe
  • we are wearing masks less (theres actually an interest cavet on why this isn't working in Scotland in the thread)
  • we are going to bigger events in crowded spaces more often
  • structural issues caused by us having greater poverty
  • later vaccination of 12 - 15 year olds

For me the one about events/gatherings in crowded spaces is the one that's interesting and we as individuals have power over - more so than mask wearing - the others lie more with government to sort the fuck out.

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE

Thanks Red.

AutumnAlmanack · 21/10/2021 10:11

It really astounds me that mask-wearing and SD have not been brought back, although I never stopped! I always wear mask and gloves at the supermarket and keep well away from anyone else wherever possible. Despite the vaccinations, I am still very worried about catching this thing, although may feel a bit better after my booster next month. I think it is the utter frustration that we don't seem to be able to keep numbers under control which is the worst thing - it is just so depressing. However, I will comply with any rules which are imposed.

Djifunrsn · 21/10/2021 10:12

I’ve been forced by my kids’ secondary to send my ds to school this week in the full knowledge my dd has Covid. That kind of madness has to stop before they ban household mixing.

friendlycat · 21/10/2021 10:13

@HereticFanjo

Mask wearing and distancing are really effective and most people I know still use them, along with wfh if they can. It's only on Mumsnet I see these huge swathes of people whining and ranting about masks.
Absolutely.

Personally I can see that now is the time to mandate the wearing of masks in public places (as previously) and if it is possible to WFH do so.
Then ask people to consider their interactions with others and reduce any unnecessary mixing if at all possible.

Claudethecat · 21/10/2021 10:13

[quote Lostinacloud]@Claudethecat, that’s the problem though. Maybe it’s all fine when it’s only the odd one or two nights a year most people will be required to show them but it doesn’t stay like that for long unfortunately. Soon they will be implemented in nearly all walks of life, sold as the only alternative to business and service closures.[/quote]
Do you have any proof of that being the plan @lostinacloud? Have any other countries extended the use of passports by stealth after their initial introduction? France went all out with its vaccine passports from day one, it did not increase the requirements by stealth.

There are certainly no rumblings in Wales about extending the reach of the vaccine passport.

Djifunrsn · 21/10/2021 10:14

I don’t think vaccination of 12-15 is going to help as much as they think. I had both my 12-15 done in September. 2 or 3 weeks later my dd has Covid. Yes very mild symptoms and not “ill” but totally able to transmit Covid to me and dh. Me and dh are double jabbed AZ. (Final jab end May) and my God, we have been really ill.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2021 10:15

@Lostinacloud

I would add to your excellent list *@RedToothBrush* that people often forget that schools in most of Europe didn’t close again after the initial lockdown. This allowed covid to spread around schools much earlier. Certainly where I live in France you couldn’t move for every child and parent having covid last October and whereas I didn’t know many people in the uk who had come across it at that time, it was harder to find someone who hadn’t had it around me in France towards the end of last year, including myself and DC!
That might well be true. I have no idea on what the stats on that are though, so can't say either way.

But yeah I think our main problem is essentially large groups of unvaccinated mixing indoors in close proximity and then overspill breakthrough cases steming from that.

But you also can't 'fix' the problem long term until you have some level of immunity in this population. That means either vaccinating or having it pass through the population. The more you delay this in anyway, the longer we will have problems. But what you don't want is a very high case load just as immunity drops. So you want is a very steep spike in cases in the unvaccinated at 'peak immunity' and then that crashing just as waning starts to kick in. (This is why the number of cases don't necessarily matter - what matters is immunity levels in the vulnerable population)

My suspicion is actually our timings are out by a month to six weeks and thats going to bite us on the ass and get messy.

There are ways to mitigate it still but we are rapidly running out of time. Closing all the vaccination centres might not have been a smart move in this context though. Neither might be a big Christmas Dinner with 5 year old Joey who is at school in the midst of a large covid outbreak and 65 year old Mike who is still waiting for his booster... but yes the 'I WANT MY CHRISTMAS DINNER AND NO ONE CAN STOP ME' mentally isn't something I'm going to argue with. For a good reason.

MarshaBradyo · 21/10/2021 10:17

I think we’re holding on it running high but then we’ll get a similar drop to Scotland. Pre winter

kirinm · 21/10/2021 10:19

People did comply last year because the numbers were frankly quite scary and you got the distinct impression there wasn't really much of a health service available.

We had thousands of people dying every day.

I can't see it getting to that sort of level again given the vast majority of people are vaccinated. Unless deaths rise significantly, I don't think they will be able to rely on people complying.

sleepingrabbits · 21/10/2021 10:19

They stopped ssp for self employed at the end of September. Both me and DH are a limited company.
We got Covid start of October, no income for 10 days each. Can't claim Covid grant as earn over £19k as a household. Additional costs of isolation, used more food, more deliveries. DS was home from school with Covid and usually has free meals as at in year 1. DH would get a certain amount of food at work for free. No help for small limited companies throughout. It's a joke. I felt better after a few days, so normally would of returned to work, yet you get test and trace stalking you saying it's your legal requirement to isolate, but Covid everywhere even us double jabbed.

AutumnAlmanack · 21/10/2021 10:20

The other problem with the boosters is that you can't even book one online until the 182 day gap has passed, so in my case I will be due my booster on or after 3rd November but can't even access the booking site until that day! Would it not be better to allow access, say 14 days before expiry?

userperuser · 21/10/2021 10:21

@Kyliealwayshadthebestdisco

Nobody is going to accept restrictions on household mixing this Christmas. They have to know that. Unless they make it literally illegal and an arrestable offence and even then many people will happily take the risk and argue the toss later if needed. Plus I think there would literally be riots. And everyone will suddenly need their child’s godmother for childcare anyway as demonstrated by our PM.

I am a doctor and I don’t underestimate COVID at all. But this government has utterly mismanaged it all along, we’ve somehow ended up with the worst of both worlds in the UK, some of the worst restrictions as well as being among the highest death rate and infection rate.

A huge part of that is the constant mixed messages - the pandemic is over, we should all get back to the new normal, back to work, GPs and hospitals to go back to normal, freedom day, nobody wearing masks in Parliament etc then all of a sudden they make a u-turn and say the pandemic isn’t over, life isn’t back to normal, people should be cautious and wear masks. They need to make up their minds and stop veering wildly from one side of the debate to the other and be a bit more truthful with the public that yes there is still some risk and we are not able to just ignore COVID much as everyone would like but neither at this point are the admission and death rates high enough to shut everything down again. They have pandered to (or are part of) the anti vaxxer anti masker lot at everyone else’s expense here and are now trying to row back on it but too late and the damage is done. Plus they don’t seem to have the courage of their own convictions, until we see Parliament full of masked MPs, good luck trying to get the public to do it.

Most of the public from bitter experience won’t even get a PCR test for COVID symptoms for various reasons but it doesn’t help that this government have made a complete hash of the messaging on testing (at the beginning, trying to pretend testing isn’t necessary and doesn’t matter instead of fessing up to the fact that they don’t have enough tests oops, and now not spelling out to people that a PCR not a lateral flow is needed if you have possible symptoms - but then they also need to update the symptoms for delta and make sure the PCR labs are up to scratch).

I mostly blame this government rather than the public for how badly we have suffered during the pandemic in this country as their management of it has been a litany of errors (except for the vaccination roll out but they are losing even this accolade now), although I do think peoples selfish nature has sadly come to the fore as well. But maybe that is natural in a situation like a pandemic where people feel under threat.

So if the government are reading this! Some of us are not fooled, and know you have done a SHIT job and have blood on your hands as well as making the country suffer through unnecessary misery. You need to do better. And it starts with not reacting to what the public think and showing some strong leadership in a crisis by practicing what you preach and thinking carefully about all the implications of what you preach, and being more honest with the public and learning from your mistakes. Yes we need a proper inquiry. And to keep the memorial wall and hold formal events at it, but it would be nice if you put a bit more focus on stopping adding to those red hearts.

And PS stop having a go at GPs, we weren’t born yesterday and know what you are trying to achieve even if the public seem to be fooled into thinking you’re somehow giving a shit about the average person on the street rather than trying to privatise healthcare so people pay twice over (as I don’t see you giving back peoples taxes which were previously used for the NHS once it’s gone), we become like the US where you go bankrupt if you are unfortunate enough to get cancer, and your mates get yet more money to put in their pockets. And yes Boots we see you too.

Well said.

I’m not a doctor but have always thought it was obvious that privatisation of healthcare was one of outcomes that would happen as a result of this situation. I was called a conspiracy theorist by many on here for pointing that out.

I really wish people would stop being fooled into thinking that anything that this government does is to protect them.

Dancerinthedark01 · 21/10/2021 10:21

Why do we care? Why are people panicking?

This is what the government wants us to do. Because whilst we're all running round like headless chickens trying to peck one another - they get away with more and more of their reckless shit.

BlueberrySugar · 21/10/2021 10:23

Good luck.

They're not telling me where I can and can't go. No more of their BS.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2021 10:29

@Djifunrsn

I’ve been forced by my kids’ secondary to send my ds to school this week in the full knowledge my dd has Covid. That kind of madness has to stop before they ban household mixing.
They are in some areas.

PHE are actively telling schools to go against the official line and to tell parents not to send in siblings in schools with a large outbreak.

But its not happening everywhere.

I know someone working at a school with an outbreak in September earlier than most - they have been working closely with PHE. What they've found is that the 'sent to school after a PCR' doesn't work with siblings. Household transmission is pretty much a given in the majority of cases so its not a case of if but when. The school found that siblings weren't testing positive until about four days later than their sibling tested positive.

The policy makes no sense if you want to stop transmissions. But it also makes no sense if you want it to spread quickly within the school too. You'd be better off just letting kids with covid go to school! So those suggesting there is an active 'let it rip' policy doesn't really hold up fully either.

Its a halfway house which was perhaps the worst of both worlds.

I think early to mid November is the turning point at which you have to really try to crack down on school transmission even if you want it to pass through schools. So my guess is we will see shift in policy here first with some restrictions returned (which is already starting to happen in some areas - my son's school has brought back some in the past two weeks but I know of others who had done so earlier than that). Probably before restrictions to the wider public.

And we will see more focus on boosters and child vaccinations too, but I think this might more hot air from government rather than much actually meaningful or helpful on the ground unfortunately.

I think we will start to get more 'advice' in late November.

I am fully expecting a car crash of conflicting advice, public resentment and hostility and a generational clash kicking in, in about early December. I'm planning to hunker down and have another quieter Christmas this year, though do intend to see people this year albeit strictly outdoors.

January will just be messy and unpleasant.

Dancerinthedark01 · 21/10/2021 10:32

January will just be messy and unpleasant.

Oh good. I look forward to it.

FlatteredFool · 21/10/2021 10:36

Altruism is dead.

Lostinacloud · 21/10/2021 10:37

@Claudethecat I don’t have proof but have watched it being rolled out in france and their version of the covid passport was also initially sold as only required for nightclubs and large events and in April the president Macron made a televised statement assuring the people of France that the Covid passport would never be used in places of daily activity like restaurants and cafes. That pledge lasted all of 2 months and then the passport was introduced to practically everywhere except food shops. You even need it to attend a non emergency healthcare appointment or to take your child to a GP.

As far as the Uk is concerned, details already drawn up and available online are sketchy. It suggests that other businesses could implement the passport (at the moment at their own discretion). And note the December date from which you can no longer self declare exemption has already been planned.

But hey, no, plan B isn’t being implemented at this stage Hmm
www.nhsx.nhs.uk/covid-19-response/using-the-nhs-covid-pass/#should

Pyewackect · 21/10/2021 10:38

I wouldn't put much into anything the mailOnline comes up with. Just look at the non fuel crisis. That was MailOnline bovine.

Alondra · 21/10/2021 10:38

Plan C is shit. It's a government failing to deal with the reality of a pandemic and putting the pressure on families.

You have a crap government that keeps changing public advice and is all over the place in failing to make clear guidelines. Trust in your basic primary health, concern for your families and neighbours and a system where "what is it for me" seems to have permeated from the top of government to the average person.

There has been no plan, no serious government campaign to vaccinate school kids who are one of the biggest transmitters of the virus but apparently there is already one in place to stop families getting together. It's fng unbelievable.'

DW (German news) did a special on why Spain has been so successful vaccinating their population without bribes and without vaccination certificates to go to restaurants, bars or discos like France. Civic duty, trust in primary health and a government plan have made all the difference.

Pyewackect · 21/10/2021 10:40

There is no plan C.

MarshaBradyo · 21/10/2021 10:42

All this stuff just gets us talking and clicking - it’s revenue for online papers and SM too

Panic like this is useful

ExConstance · 21/10/2021 10:43

I really don't feel able to contribute to this debate as we are not being told essential information to take a view. What is the breakdown re age and vaccination status of the people testing positive now.? Same for those being admitted to hospital and deaths. If it is mainly children and the unvaccinated as I suspect then there is not much point in putting restrictions on everyone else. Working in care I would not be surprised if once the deaths relating to the unvaccinated are taken out of the figures a large proportion of te remaining ones are elderly people who have other very serious health problems and that they die with rather than of covid.
The fact that we are not being given this information means there is a reason to be keeping it from us, it would be better if it was shared.
Despite being a logical grown up person I'm afraid my mental health just won't take any more restrictions. After the first 2 lockdowns had me stressed out, covered in eczema and plagues by allergies, crying every morning when | had to go to work I have now just decided i need to live as "old normal" as possible. I certainly won't be visiting any shops if I am forced to wear a mask again.