To think that unvaccinated people whining about rights and freedoms when they can’t go to a concert

[Anon778833]

Are entitled? I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers say that it makes no difference if you’re vaccinated, so they should be allowed to go around doing exactly what they want even though they don’t care about the effects on other people or don’t believe the virus exists.

The government has not said that they will restrict medical treatments or impose financial penalties on people who don’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t agree with that. That would be taking away rights.

But I personally don’t think that it’s a god given right to attend clubs, theatres and to go on holiday if you refuse to comply with health measures at the height of a pandemic.

[Brefugee]

Care to explain?

[sleepwouldbenice]

@Brefugee

If you don't like the above sentence, you are literally a Nazi, as in 'by definition'; you desire the curtailment of the rights of your political enemies.

THEY ARE NOT FUCKING NAZIS. Jesus H Christ on a bike, stop comparing a few restrictions to the Third Reich.

A lot of people get upset about having Nazism explained to them, because they don't think that's what they are. But there are people on this very thread saying that going to gigs or restaurants etc is a privilege, and it isn't. The freedom to go about one's business freely is a RIGHT and, by the way, the corollary responsibility is to exercise that right, not to blandly submit to experimental drugs.

Again. There are no actual Nazis here. Stop it. Stop comparing the systematic murder (and all the other degradations that happened over the decade before that) to a few restrictions during a global pandemic.

It is a very weak and lazy argument.

Bottom line: If pubs, clubs, events want to survive you can bet your bottom dollar that even if the government don't require vaccinations to enter, if they lose custom because of that, they will start to require them themselves. That is how the free market works. But there isn't a free market in the UK, there is government control. So like it or not the government, on advice of its scientific advisers has implemented some measures.

I can understand people who don't want to get vaccinated because they don't trust the government, don't trust the vaccine, still aren't sure it's safe or effective or whatever. As long as they have done some reading themselves and aren't just listening to conspiracy nuts.

But. "oh i got the vaccination or else i couldn't go to Majorca" isn't a principled anti-vaccination stance, is it? So if the govt nudge unit says to the government "if you attach some strings to some fun things, people who are a bit wavery and don't actually believe all the conspiracy theories, will get vaccinated" and thus we will move closer to the point of high enough vaccination rates for everything to open again.

That is the point we are currently at. It isn't about curtailing the rights of people who have a sound reason for not wanting to be vaccinated (outlined above) it is about capturing those who really don't care but are just making noise for some reason.

In a few months it's Christmas. Based on last year i expect there to be a relaxation of the rules, with an accompanying small spike afterwards. But we'll see. I'd rather not have any spike, no deaths and low new cases. But we are where we are

Well said. Although can’t believe you actually have to say this

[sleepwouldbenice]

Yes but that’s once the virus has been contracted, even then there is still a benefit in reduction of severity of illness. Reduction in transmission is still awaiting clarification (afaik) but there is clearly a significant impact even if it’s not total.

For the purposes of not overwhelming healthcare (which is what all of this has been about ultimately) any reduction in transmission shouldn’t be ignored because it’s not 100%. Nor should the reduction in severity of illness. This is what allows us to function without drastic restrictions such as lockdowns.

I’m not aiming this at you personally, but it’s really frustrating to keep reading statements that essentially say the vaccines don’t work to stop transmission because that’s what people take away from articles like that. They do, just not 100% but we don’t need 100% as long as it’s managed with that in mind which means considering other mitigations alongside vaccinations. This isn’t news and it was said on their approval back in January that they weren’t going to be a silver bullet. It’s not all or nothing.

This. So many many times. I really just can’t believe how posters are blind to this. If you don’t have the vaccine it really is your choice but stop spreading misinformation about their effectiveness. It’s pathetic and makes your argument ineffective

[MyMabel]

Just wanted to drop by as a made a post upthread about my concerns about having the vaccine while pregnant (not anti-vaxxer, just very scared) but despite my health anxiety and catastrophic thoughts; I had my first dose of Pfizer today; funnily enough I didn’t die from anaphylaxis in the first 15 mins which was a nice surprise 😂 now I just need to spend the next 8 weeks plucking up the gall to get the second dose.

In a weird way when the nurse told me it might make me very tired as a symptom I crossed my fingers as I’m suffering the worst insomnia at the moment (thanks baby) - still been awake since 1am. No fatigue but my arm hurts, what was the point.

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@TheKeatingFive

If we’re going to get smart about this, it’s worth acknowledging that the biggest problem are anti vaxxers who are also vulnerable to severe covid.

Don't start using the word 'vulnerable' in terms of anti-vaxxers. A better word here could be 'prone'. I'm really not being snippy, but 'vulnerable' has other meanings that aren't usually associated with those that have actively (often aggressively) chosen their own position.

[TheKeatingFive]

Don't start using the word 'vulnerable' in terms of anti-vaxxers. A better word here could be 'prone'. I'm really not being snippy, but 'vulnerable' has other meanings that aren't usually associated with those that have actively (often aggressively) chosen their own position

That’s just ridiculous.

If they’re vulnerable to covid I will use that term.

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@TheKeatingFive

Don't start using the word 'vulnerable' in terms of anti-vaxxers. A better word here could be 'prone'. I'm really not being snippy, but 'vulnerable' has other meanings that aren't usually associated with those that have actively (often aggressively) chosen their own position

That’s just ridiculous.

If they’re vulnerable to covid I will use that term.

No - on balance, anti-vaxxers (or those who haven't had the vaccine) - are just more likely to fall ill.

I'm objecting to your attempt to twist the narrative there. And it is a twist. It occurred when anti-maskers were carrying on about their rights as well - they said they were more vulnerable, both mentally and physically, than others.

Where there is an actual group of people that is vulnerable, just use a different word. There's plenty of them.

[TheKeatingFive]

I'm objecting to your attempt to twist the narrative there

I’m not twisting any narrative. Vulnerable has been used as a technical designator for those likely to suffer severely from covid. Those people can also be anti vaxxers. Statement of fact.

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@TheKeatingFive

I’m not twisting any narrative. Vulnerable has been used as a technical designator for those likely to suffer severely from covid. Those people can also be anti vaxxers. Statement of fact.

Of course that's a statistical fact. If you take a group of people likely to suffer from severe covid - eg. CEV and CV people, the elderly - some are probable to be anti-vaxxers.

Your first statement - "If we’re going to get smart about this, it’s worth acknowledging that the biggest problem are anti vaxxers who are also vulnerable to severe covid" - implied all anti-vaxxers as a group are vulnerable to severe covid though. They aren't.

[TheKeatingFive]

implied all anti-vaxxers as a group are vulnerable to severe covid though

It didn’t imply that no.

Note use of the word also.

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@TheKeatingFive

implied all anti-vaxxers as a group are vulnerable to severe covid though

It didn’t imply that no.

Note use of the word also.

'Also' in that context can be construed a few different ways.

[TheKeatingFive]

'Also' in that context can be construed a few different ways.

Christ on a bike. You understand my point now, yes?

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@TheKeatingFive

'Also' in that context can be construed a few different ways.

Christ on a bike. You understand my point now, yes?

As long as you understand mine

Anti-vaxxers, as a group, shouldn't be described as 'vulnerable'. Ever.

[TheKeatingFive]

Anti-vaxxers, as a group, shouldn't be described as 'vulnerable'. Ever.

Well they’re far from an homogenous group, but I think your implicit assumption here is unfair. There are plenty of people in the anti vaxxer group who have been badly treated by authority and/or the medical establishment and yes that’s a kind of vulnerability.

Unless we try to unpick that and build trust among these groups we aren’t going to get anywhere. Calling them stupid, selfish, and doling out ‘punishments’ is only going to make our anti vaxxer issues worse in the long term.

But I’m not even sure the people shouting the loudest actually want to tackle the anti vaxxer problem. I suspect many of them just want to kick off.

I get the frustration, but it’s a complex issue and I don’t see much in the way of thoughtful approaches to solving it.

Tim Harford had a good article in the FT last weekend on it.

[hamstersarse]

The whole anti-vaxx hate is a really new thing. The thread that was posted on here from 2007 (?) about the swine flu vaccine (which I was on and was saying I'd had my child vaccinated - which I don't remember at all!) did not have ONE mention of this 'us versus them' anti-vax bullshit

The good old days eh.

I do wonder how we have got to this position - I guess it will be unpicked over time as emotions calm down. It's pretty gruesome right now though

[hamstersarse]

Example here of threads from days gone by....just normal discussion about a vaccine. I think Swine Flu was more deadly for children too? Might be wrong on that, can't remember

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/901666-to-consider-not-immunizing-ds-against-swine-39-flu

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/877551-to-be-dubious-about-the-swine-flu-jab?pg=3

[riveted1]

Great examples of how the suspicion surrounding vaccines, minimising of the impact of infectious disease, and general misinformation is not new to coronavirus @hamstersarse

Crazy to see the same posters posting the same points even 10 years ago

[SueSaid]

'The whole anti-vaxx hate is a really new thing'

But it has a direct impact on us that's why many people go 🙄🙄🙄 when someone whines 'well it's my body n my rulez'.

You can argue to til the cows come home that 'fatties' use nhs resources too but we don't have ICUs having to quadruple their capacity overnight to accommodate an outbreak of obesity. These demands are figured into nhs budgets and service provision etc.

I know people in an area with 50% double vaccine rates. And surprise surprise their icus are already creaking under the strain, so if anyone else need critical care they may well not get it.

I don't hate anti vaxxers I just think they are incredible stupid, pathetic and self absorbed.

[userperuser]

I hate vaccine pushers. They sound like a bunch of self entitled c*s.

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@riveted1

Great examples of how the suspicion surrounding vaccines, minimising of the impact of infectious disease, and general misinformation is not new to coronavirus *@hamstersarse*

Crazy to see the same posters posting the same points even 10 years ago

Absolutely. I only recognised 2-3 posters' names, though, including 'bubbleymummy' which I'm assuming is 'bumbleymummy' as the posting style and sentiment is exactly the same.

[SueSaid]

@userperuser

I hate vaccine pushers. They sound like a bunch of self entitled c*s.

Self entitled? Well yes, I feel that my family and friends are entitled to have access to critical care should they need it. We had ICUs practically taking over entire hospitals to look after those ill with covid last year! now thanks to those that have had the vaccine things have improved dramatically. Not so much if you're in areas with a low uptake.

Lockdown, restrictions all over thanks to a bunch of self entitled cunts 🙄 (you can say cunts on here no need for **)

Have you had it and if not why not?

[AlixandraTheGreat]

@TheKeatingFive

Anti-vaxxers, as a group, shouldn't be described as 'vulnerable'. Ever.

Well they’re far from an homogenous group, but I think your implicit assumption here is unfair. There are plenty of people in the anti vaxxer group who have been badly treated by authority and/or the medical establishment and yes that’s a kind of vulnerability.

You know that wasn't what I meant by 'vulnerability'. I'd term what you are describing as 'sensitivity'. They have issues with authority and they distrust science. These may stem from simple misunderstandings to the more complex sourcing of information from the wrong channels.

[wasthataburp]

Hmmmm most of my friends have not had the vaccine but they are certainly not entitled or moaning about not attending concerts?! Thanks im sure if they were they bothered they would just get it.

Where are you seeing all these entitled people OP?

[wasthataburp]

@userperuser

I hate vaccine pushers. They sound like a bunch of self entitled c*s.

I'm sick of the vaccine pushers and anti vaxxers both pushing their opinions on people. It's up to the individuals to make their own medical choices based on their individual circumstances. Both annoy me equally

[userperuser]

Have you had it and if not why not?

Mind you’re own business