To think that unvaccinated people whining about rights and freedoms when they can’t go to a concert

[Anon778833]

Are entitled? I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers say that it makes no difference if you’re vaccinated, so they should be allowed to go around doing exactly what they want even though they don’t care about the effects on other people or don’t believe the virus exists.

The government has not said that they will restrict medical treatments or impose financial penalties on people who don’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t agree with that. That would be taking away rights.

But I personally don’t think that it’s a god given right to attend clubs, theatres and to go on holiday if you refuse to comply with health measures at the height of a pandemic.

Such a bad example. A drivers licence certifies that you are capable of operating a piece of heavy machinery. Not the same.

Capable of operating it, proving you are not a risk to you or those around you. When you look at it that way, it’s a perfect example.

I guarantee when the test was first introduced, people complained about having to take it.

This means vaccinating lots of people DURING a pandemic while prevalence is therefore high, increases the risk of a mutation that is an immune escape variant

But goes on to say “the likelihood of this is unknown”

Yanbu and it shows just how entitled a portion of the population are.

Many countries require vaccines against a range of virus to travel to/through them. It's not a new concept and I've yet to hear a vaccine opposer speak out about the "injustice" of needing yellow fever or malaria vaccine certificate for certain countries. Apparently it's perfectly fine to restrict travel for people in developing countries unless the have the proper vaccines, but ask a westerner to do the same it suddenly becomes a civil rights issue.

We've been incredibly fortunate to have controlled and in some cases eradicated most nasty viruses, ironically through mass vaccination of previous generations, and yet some people think they have all the rights and none of the responsibility. Can you imagine the shit show we'd be in now if our parents/grandparents took this attitude with Polio??

Capable of operating it, proving you are not a risk to you or those around you. When you look at it that way, it’s a perfect example

Yeah no. Because the vaccine doesn’t even prevent transmission so the vaccinated are not even proven to be free of risk from this POV.

Maybe have the vaccinated get negative COVID tests for these sorts of everyday activities too?

Or maybe stop treating other human beings like potential disease vectors?

Many countries require vaccines against a range of virus to travel to/through them

Many countries?

Just a handful of African countries. Not anywhere with a significant tourist industry.

It's not a new concept

It really is.

I've yet to hear a vaccine opposer speak out about the "injustice" of needing yellow fever or malaria vaccine certificate for certain countries

Because most people on Mumsnet are not holidaying in fucking Eastern Africa, that’s why. Maybe it’s a point of conversation there, who knows?

Apparently it's perfectly fine to restrict travel for people in developing countries

This wasn’t happening unless you were applying for a residence visa.

It's slowly dawning on me how thorny an issue this is.

Firstly, it's not really about the unvaccinated's capacity to transmit. It's about the potential for the unvaccinated to take up hospital beds, thus overwhelming the health service and preventing others from getting treatment.

The UK has always worked on the basis of treatment for all, regardless of how they have taken care of their health. In an ideal world, this is how it should be, but we have to acknowledge that it may not be possible to deliver on current funding levels. If this principle creeps in, it has implications for much more than Covid.

I think we probably do need to shift towards taking greater personal responsibility for our health. I'm not sure what form that might take though.

Many countries?

Just a handful of African countries. Not anywhere with a significant tourist industry.

Yes many countries. Austrialia, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Colombia, Egypt, France, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Thailand (to name a few). That's 6/7 continents covered and several on that list have significant tourism industries.

It really is.

Again, using the yellow fever vaccine as an example, the vaccine currently used was developed in the 1930s and attempts at controlling its spread between countries have been ongoing since the 1910s. It's not a new concept.

Because most people on Mumsnet are not holidaying in fucking Eastern Africa, that’s why. Maybe it’s a point of conversation there, who knows?

Way to miss the point. Either vaccine passports/certificates are an "injustice" or they are not. You can't say it's OK to restrict the movement of people from Brasilia or Accra due to a virus risk, but it's not OK to restrict the travel of people from Brighton or Aberdeen due to a virus risk. Especially when the one you're arguing you shouldn't need a passport for is the more problematic of the two.

This wasn’t happening unless you were applying for a residence visa.

Nope, all those countries I've listed at the start require people from, or who have spent time in (more than 12 hours I think), at risk areas to have a vaccine certificate before they can travel to/through. Nothing to do with residence.

Nope, all those countries I've listed at the start require people from, or who have spent time in (more than 12 hours I think), at risk areas to have a vaccine certificate before they can travel to/through. Nothing to do with residence

Looks like someone doesn’t know the difference between recommended vaccines and required vaccines! Having travelled to many of those countries you listed, I guarantee you they did not require vaccine for entry.

@Jenala

Thanks for your post

This is exactly what people who are ‘anti bad’ have been saying for some time

This means vaccinating lots of people DURING a pandemic while prevalence is therefore high, increases the risk of a mutation that is an immune escape variant (one that can sideline vaccines).

The division that views such as OPs have created is literally dangerous

• anti-vax

@TheKeatingFive

It's slowly dawning on me how thorny an issue this is.

Firstly, it's not really about the unvaccinated's capacity to transmit. It's about the potential for the unvaccinated to take up hospital beds, thus overwhelming the health service and preventing others from getting treatment.

The UK has always worked on the basis of treatment for all, regardless of how they have taken care of their health. In an ideal world, this is how it should be, but we have to acknowledge that it may not be possible to deliver on current funding levels. If this principle creeps in, it has implications for much more than Covid.

I think we probably do need to shift towards taking greater personal responsibility for our health. I'm not sure what form that might take though.

I agree. People need to start taking personal responsibility and that includes diet and exercise. Not everything can be avoided, but there’s an awful lot individuals can do for themselves. We need to move away from it being acceptable to misuse our bodies and expect the medical profession to mop up the mess.

Been away for a few hours, but reading through was going to say requiring a vaccine to enter countries has been entirely normal for decades but @Bucanarab has already got there.

Getting various jabs including yellow fever was part and parcel for the prep for going to South America for me more than 25 years ago.

If we are going to go down the track of deservedness of care, COVID is the least of people’s worries

With 67% of people being overweight or obese we absolutely enter dangerous territory for most people.

Lifestyle diseases take up the majority of NHS time and budget. Indeed if people weren’t obese and Ill because of lifestyle then the NHS would have been able to cope with a novel virus no problem….sort of what it was made for!

The really really annoying thing about issues like this is that in the next few years there will be hand-wringing articles about the 'unintended consequences' of vaccine mandates and passports - the effect on tourism and industry, on people's mental health, on minorities, the disadvantaged and the marginalised, etc etc etc. And then everyone will say 'oh dear who could have seen that coming, oh no what a shame,' exactly as they have done with all the consequences of lockdown. It's so predictable and so frustrating.

@MaggieFS

Been away for a few hours, but reading through was going to say requiring a vaccine to enter countries has been entirely normal for decades but *@Bucanarab* has already got there.

Getting various jabs including yellow fever was part and parcel for the prep for going to South America for me more than 25 years ago.

It has not been part and parcel.

She’s absolutely wrong about it and lists countries like Australia and France. It doesn’t help her argument to list countries that are NOW requiring COVID vaccines as proof this is a normal thing.

You haven’t needed a yellow fever vaccine to travel to South America. Or to Southeast Asia. It’s merely recommended. I promise you nobody was at the border demanding these things.

@MaggieFS

It might have been usual for travel to another country. Fine.
But we are talking about citizens of a country being restricted in what they do in their own country.
African countries have never limited their own citizens like this

@UsedUpUsername Then we will agree to disagree because I promise you it absolutely 100% was required.

@hamstersarse There are a few different aspects under discussion here. With regards to restrictions within one's own country, I think it is far more important that a business owner or event organiser retains the right to apply entry restrictions of any shape and size upon their potential patrons. Nothing is stopping the unvaccinated from setting up their own cafes, pubs or restaurants. They are actively choosing not to partake in something which is for the greater good so why should the majority have to accept them?

@hamstersarse

If we are going to go down the track of deservedness of care, COVID is the least of people’s worries

With 67% of people being overweight or obese we absolutely enter dangerous territory for most people.

Lifestyle diseases take up the majority of NHS time and budget. Indeed if people weren’t obese and Ill because of lifestyle then the NHS would have been able to cope with a novel virus no problem….sort of what it was made for!

Yep, fat people, smokers and drinkers not getting automatic NHS care would save an absolute fortune, miles more than the small number who aren't vaccinated!!!

Then we will agree to disagree because I promise you it absolutely 100% was required

Unless you literally handed your papers over to the border guards to check, then I’ll assume these were just recommend vaccinations for you.

I got a rabies/yellow fever/Japanese encephalitis shots to ‘prep’ for Thailand (among other things) but none of it was actually required for entry.

I have not read everything but I know for a fact that you do need yellow fever vaccine just to visit some African counties such as DRC. And yes, they do check.

@theDudesmummy

I have not read everything but I know for a fact that you do need yellow fever vaccine just to visit some African counties such as DRC. And yes, they do check.

This is pretty much limited to Eastern Africa though. It’s just not that common elsewhere

As a medical student I would not have been allowed to continue my studies past a certain point without getting Hep B and BCG (tuberculosis) vaccines. No-one dissented then (it was a very long time ago!).

DRC is not eastern Africa, it is west. Not a major point, but there are countries on both sides that insist on yellow fever vaccine for sure.

@UsedUpUsername

Then we will agree to disagree because I promise you it absolutely 100% was required

Unless you literally handed your papers over to the border guards to check, then I’ll assume these were just recommend vaccinations for you.

I got a rabies/yellow fever/Japanese encephalitis shots to ‘prep’ for Thailand (among other things) but none of it was actually required for entry.

I've already told you they weren't. You assume incorrectly.

A quick google brings this up wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2020/preparing-international-travelers/yellow-fever-vaccine-and-malaria-prophylaxis-information-by-country/peru

"Revaccination against yellow fever was previously required by certain countries at 10-year intervals to comply with International Health Regulations (IHR). In 2014, the World Health Assembly (of WHO) adopted the recommendation to amend the IHR by removing the 10-year booster dose requirement, and stipulated a 2-year transition period for this change. Consequently, as of July 11, 2016, a completed International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP) is valid for the lifetime of the vaccinee. Moreover, countries cannot require proof of revaccination (booster) against yellow fever as a condition of entry, even if the last vaccination was >10 years prior."

Now will you please accept that vaccination HAS been required by many countries as a condition of entry in the past. It is not a new concept.

It is a good thing to build knowledge and far better to accept facts than digging ones heels in being unable to admit to a mistake.