To think that unvaccinated people whining about rights and freedoms when they can’t go to a concert

[Anon778833]

Are entitled? I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers say that it makes no difference if you’re vaccinated, so they should be allowed to go around doing exactly what they want even though they don’t care about the effects on other people or don’t believe the virus exists.

The government has not said that they will restrict medical treatments or impose financial penalties on people who don’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t agree with that. That would be taking away rights.

But I personally don’t think that it’s a god given right to attend clubs, theatres and to go on holiday if you refuse to comply with health measures at the height of a pandemic.

[dilly123]

@XenoBitch

YABU
I don't understand how anyone can think this division of people into vaccinated and unvaccinated is acceptable. Just look at the arguments it causes online. The world has lost its mind.

Totally agree with this..

People are only resentful of the unvaccinated because the media are telling them to be.

Being vaccinated doesn't stop transmission so vaccine passports have no place in a fair free society... the world has indeed gone crazy!!

[ilovesooty]

Flying and attending mass events are not basic freedoms.

[CoopsMalloops]

My double jabbed colleague got pinged today. Doesn’t have to isolate tho so is free to roam potentially spreading the virus if they are infected and less likely to display symptoms.

Unjabbed person, would have to isolate because they are more likely to display symptoms.

Who is most at risk of spreading the covid virus in this situation?

Covid vaccine hesitant people are not all covid deniers.

[SueSaid]

'It's totally fine to be obese and clogging up the NHS. No-one gives a hoot about that.'

It isn't fine, there is lots of health advice regarding obesity you must live in a cave if you've missed it.

However. The point is covid without vaccinations doesn't just add a few extra patients it completely overwhelms hospitals. Last year wasn't made up y'know. So yes we can keep telling 'fatties' as you put it to eat less and carry on treating type 2/lifestyle diabetes but they don't suddenly increase ICU admissions by 400% do they hmm?

No idea why 18mths later people still don't get this.

Get vaccinated or if you won't then accept you may have some restrictions to your activities.

[RussianAdBot]

Correction: I'll definitely have ZERO restrictions to my activities.

If you don't like the above sentence, you are literally a Nazi, as in 'by definition'; you desire the curtailment of the rights of your political enemies.

A lot of people get upset about having Nazism explained to them, because they don't think that's what they are. But there are people on this very thread saying that going to gigs or restaurants etc is a privilege, and it isn't. The freedom to go about one's business freely is a RIGHT and, by the way, the corollary responsibility is to exercise that right, not to blandly submit to experimental drugs.

Again, if you want the drug, go and get it. Vaccines have been public health policy for decades, there's nothing new here. What IS new is the notion that the government can or should get involved in mandating the consumption of a corporate product, which I feel is what the majority of supposed "antivaxxers" oppose, and what all sensible people should oppose regardless of their attitude towards towards the latest vaccine.

[Iggly]

However. The point is covid without vaccinations doesn't just add a few extra patients it completely overwhelms hospitals. Last year wasn't made up y'know. So yes we can keep telling 'fatties' as you put it to eat less and carry on treating type 2/lifestyle diabetes but they don't suddenly increase ICU admissions by 400% do they hmm?

I think it’s an invalid comparison to be honest.

While chronic illnesses linked to obesity are a huge problem for the NHS, that’s partly because our society makes obesity more likely. Covid is a bit different! (Although made worse by poor economic outcomes).

[SueSaid]

'Again, if you want the drug, go and get it.'

🥱

Nobody 'wants' it, however most responsible and intelligent people have fortunately had it therefore hospitalisations and deaths have plummeted leading to a return to normal life.

Those who have refused should just quietly be ashamed of themselves and grateful for the many who have done the right thing.

If those that haven't bothered have some restrictions to their fun well tough shit.

[RussianAdBot]

Ah, so now the hospitalisations and deaths have "plummeted". Well, that's marvellous. Do you think all those intelligent and responsible people will now behave intelligently and responsibly with regard to the implementation of medical apartheid?

If you stand in front of the mirror and say "intelligent and responsible" 13 times, does it come true?

[hamstersarse]

@JaniieJones

'It's totally fine to be obese and clogging up the NHS. No-one gives a hoot about that.'

It isn't fine, there is lots of health advice regarding obesity you must live in a cave if you've missed it.

However. The point is covid without vaccinations doesn't just add a few extra patients it completely overwhelms hospitals. Last year wasn't made up y'know. So yes we can keep telling 'fatties' as you put it to eat less and carry on treating type 2/lifestyle diabetes but they don't suddenly increase ICU admissions by 400% do they hmm?

No idea why 18mths later people still don't get this.

Get vaccinated or if you won't then accept you may have some restrictions to your activities.

So we have over a million hospital admissions a year because of obesity

We have had about half of that because of Covid in the past 18 months

But they are not comparable in terms of restrictions?

That doesn't make sense. Most people (if not all) can fix their obesity. So why not put them in the same category as people who have not been vaccinated? There is a fix for obesity too? Why only these - are you saying that they also have no choice about why they are in hospital?

I am actually not supporting restrictions on obese people. I am trying to make a point that once you start supporting this sort of fascism it can easily spread. We already have the mantra to 'Save the NHS', we all (well not all) put up rainbows to signal that we worship it, so it is not even a great leap to start with unvaccinated people and then this quickly infects other areas of life, the obese being the most obvious. Save the NHS is the perfect banner for it and we are all bought into that already. I just think be careful what you are allowing to happen here, history does repeat itself even though we think we are immune to making the same mistakes as our ancestors.

[ArnoldtheAngryTapir]

@JaniieJones

'Again, if you want the drug, go and get it.'

🥱

Nobody 'wants' it, however most responsible and intelligent people have fortunately had it therefore hospitalisations and deaths have plummeted leading to a return to normal life.

Those who have refused should just quietly be ashamed of themselves and grateful for the many who have done the right thing.

If those that haven't bothered have some restrictions to their fun well tough shit.

"quietly ashamed of themselves", Jesus, I've heard everything now !!!

[SueSaid]

'While chronic illnesses linked to obesity are a huge problem for the NHS, that’s partly because our society makes obesity more likely. Covid is a bit different! '

Our society makes obesity more likely! oh I've heard it all now. No, overeating and sitting on one's arse makes obesity more likely.

Yes, covid is different because it causes massive extra strain on the health service. Remember last year all opas and routine treatment paused for 6mths to accommodate the very sick? We haven't got that at the moment thanks to the vaccinated.

'Ah, so now the hospitalisations and deaths have "plummeted'

Yes . Just watch the news or read a paper sometimes instead of getting all your info from antivaxxers.

[NearlyAlwaysInsane]

@ilovesooty

Flying and attending mass events are not basic freedoms.

Flying may not be a freedom, but travel is. The freedom to travel and move about without having to 'prove' your fitness to travel is a basic feature of contemporary democracies. Covid-related restrictions, while understandable and rational responses at the time, should not become the standard state of affairs where normal travel becomes a complete palaver involving the continuous production of 'proof' that you are OK to travel.

Attending mass events, I agree with you, is not a freedom. However, it is is a normal part of living in a free society where people go to mass events (sports, concerts, festivals, etc) without having to produce some paperwork to show that they are somehow 'legit.' That is what happens in totalitarian countries like China - not in democratic countries.

We are also not living in March 2020 any more, and the NHS is not currently getting overwhelmed, so using the same rationale of almost 2 years ago to justify policies going forwards is not rational and not science-based.

[TheKeatingFive]

This is one issue where I totally see both sides.

The fundamental difference between covid and everything else is that our healthcare system isn’t set up for it (leaving aside arguments about how well it actually functioned pre covid).

So yeah, I really get the impulse of ‘everyone just get the vaccine as the swiftest and easiest way to sort the problem’.

However, if we go down the route of telling people they have a moral duty to take pressure off the health service, logically and ethically, that can’t stop at covid. We would have to start thinking of obesity in these terms also, as realistically that absorbs enormous health resources.

The roots of vaccine hesitancy are complex and difficult to unravel. Taking a ‘just get the vaccine or we make your life as difficult as possible’ approach will only entrench attitudes and make this a much bigger issue in the longer run.

[gingercatsparky]

@Dentistlakes

People have to have a choice, but they need to accept there will be consequences. Choosing not to be vaccinated is not decision that has no impact on others. They are more likely to become seriously ill and need hospital care which risks overwhelming the NHS and reducing access for others to essential care. People are angry with them because they appear to be ignorant of the consequences their choice is having on other people.

Yes. Tell that to a friend of a friend who wasn't double jabbed and got COVID. She was panicking as couldn't breathe and passed it on to her baby. Apparently in tears and in a bad way. What did she do? Turn up at a&e with symptoms and then was surprised at the response of the receptionist who apparently kicked off at her. Sorry but I do find it hard to have sympathy for idiots like this.

[ArnoldtheAngryTapir]

@gingercatsparky

Irrespective of anyones views on vaccination the A&E receptionist you mention should be disciplined for that sort of behaviour.

It is unacceptable behaviour for any staff member to judge anyone who visits A&E for anything. Drs and nurses are taught as part of their training not to judge their patients (or they certainly used to be).

Even if you think your patient has made bad choices with their health or are a convicted child abuser, or just a raving hypochondriac you don't judge.

I would have though in an area as public facing as A&E this attitude wold have be drummed into the support staff too.

[DrankEnoughToDrown]

People have to have a choice, but they need to accept there will be consequences.

Some people are desperate for there to be consequences. They seem angry that the unvaccinated people are not being punished. It doesn’t even seem to be about safety for many, they just unvaccinated people to pay for what they see as selfishness.

[DrankEnoughToDrown]

*they just want

[hamstersarse]

I disagree that large events are not a basic freedom.

It is interesting that everyone always goes for concerts as if that is nothing. There is a whole raft of research that shows how important large gatherings with music are for human health and wellbeing . Humans are social creatures and need these interactions to feel part of the crowd (sorry). It is mystifying to me how the cries for health when it comes to Covid discount everything we know about humans up until now. I will never understand how people were so keen to allow their children's development to be stunted for something that was never a risk to them. I hate the phrase 'thrown under a bus' but it really does have some relevance here.

Large gatherings also aren't just concerts - they are graduation ceremonies, running events, trade shows, conferences, weddings. The list is endless as to what could come under the category. All things which are absolutely something we should not be letting our governments dictate whether we can do, based on a vaccine which neither stops the spread or protects you from getting ill.

Governments don't own you, you live in a democracy which literally means 'ruled by the people'. The power is held by the citizens and is based on freedom and equality between all people. Promoting equality means that all people are equal in the eyes of the law.

You can argue all day about this, but there is no doubt that limiting movement because of vaccination status in your own hard fought democratic country is entering a grey area. And furthermore, the 'greater good' is an argument used by every totalitarian system there has ever been.

[Cornettoninja]

The freedom to travel and move about without having to 'prove' your fitness to travel is a basic feature of contemporary democracies

Is it? Pregnancy is subject to airline restrictions, other modes of transport including planes won’t allow you to fly if you are visibly unwell. There are requirements from some countries to clarify your vaccination status for certain diseases for short trips or chronic conditions if you’re planning to emigrate (HIV/AIDS status can still stop you being able to emigrate to some countries - Canada is one off the top of my head). Medically inadmissible is a term that has been in use since pre-pandemic.

This is the first time most of us will have come across having to fulfil these kinds of requirements but I don’t think it’s true to say that there is no precedent.

[hamstersarse]

@Cornettoninja

Travel to other countries and the restrictions they may place upon entry is up to that country. Anyone can accept that.

What is more horrifying is the cries for restrictions within your own country - losing your rights as a citizen to do things that are basic features of your democratic country - where you pay taxes and elect a government.

How can it be feasible to collect taxes from citizens yet curtail their right to go to a graduation ceremony because they chose not to have a vaccine? I honestly don't know how you would justify that rationally without it creeping into many other aspects of how we live our lives

[hamstersarse]

"In general, the basic rights normally regarded as arising from citizenship are the right to a passport, the right to leave and return to the country/ies of citizenship, the right to live in that country and to work there."

That is the definition of a citizen. Advocating for these restrictions is changing the definition of a citizen in the UK. Fine if you think it is worth it, but please quit with the threads such as this from @Itsnotover where you blanket tar everyone who is questioning this as 'whining'. Citizen rights are fundamental to your very long-term health and wealth, and so any change to them should be thoroughly examined.

[SueSaid]

'Travel to other countries and the restrictions they may place upon entry is up to that country. Anyone can accept that.'

'What is more horrifying is the cries for restrictions within your own country - losing your rights as a citizen to do things that are basic features of your democratic country - where you pay taxes and elect a government.'

It is the same thing, travel with conditions! Public health issues concern us all. The vaccine refusers have a direct impact on us all.

If we did a study I bet all vaccine refusers are mask refusers and flouters too and wang about 'fascists' without seeming to have the basic concerns about a virus that has killed thousands. But hey, 'their body their rulez' 🙄.

[DrankEnoughToDrown]

If we did a study I bet all vaccine refusers are mask refusers and flouters too and wang about 'fascists' without seeming to have the basic concerns about a virus that has killed thousands. But hey, 'their body their rulez'

I’m not vaccinated but I still wear a mask. In real life I don’t often talk about covid anymore. Just getting on with life.

[userperuser]

@JaniieJones

'Travel to other countries and the restrictions they may place upon entry is up to that country. Anyone can accept that.'

'What is more horrifying is the cries for restrictions within your own country - losing your rights as a citizen to do things that are basic features of your democratic country - where you pay taxes and elect a government.'

It is the same thing, travel with conditions! Public health issues concern us all. The vaccine refusers have a direct impact on us all.

If we did a study I bet all vaccine refusers are mask refusers and flouters too and wang about 'fascists' without seeming to have the basic concerns about a virus that has killed thousands. But hey, 'their body their rulez' 🙄.

I’ve chosen not to have the vaccine at this time.

I have followed every rule when it was required so you’re theory is incorrect.

[userperuser]

Your*