Who’s dying if so many vaccinated?

[Flossie44]

So if the vaccination rate is about 80%, who’s in hospital/dying? Is it the 20% unvaccinated?

This death cert thing.

If someone is ill and has multiple health issues. Then the cause needs to be well. What it is.

If a person has a severe life threatening condition or is very frail. That's why they died.

Otherwise it would be. This 80yo with advanced cancer who was recovering from a risky surgery to do I dunno. Something to their heart.

And had covid in the last x time.

Died from covid.

That's silly.

@NiceGerbil

This death cert thing.

If someone is ill and has multiple health issues. Then the cause needs to be well. What it is.

If a person has a severe life threatening condition or is very frail. That's why they died.

Otherwise it would be. This 80yo with advanced cancer who was recovering from a risky surgery to do I dunno. Something to their heart.

And had covid in the last x time.

Died from covid.

That's silly.

That approach to recording applies to both vaccinated and unvaccinated. So it should not be a driver in terms of the relative outcomes in reference to the stats.

Moreover, if the vaccine reduces the risk of death, then the stats showing the relative number of vaccinated and unvaccinated dying from Covid is interesting … and the answer is not that there are more vaccinated people … because it is about who is dying FROM Covid and not who is dying generally.

Saying there are more vaccinated people so more of them will die from Covid is a strange thing to say and undermines the idea behind the vaccine.

Not sure I follow your logic.

People who are vulnerable were prioritised.

Vulnerable people are sadly more likely to die full stop. And I suspect way more likely to have vaccine.

Your careful analysis leaves out demographics.

The fact is the death rates are many times lower than before the vaccine.

So. Great.

What is the point of this thread?

Is it to try and persuade people not to have the vaccine?
Bit late for that isn't it? Most of the adult population have.

Is it to try and worry people who have had the vaccine?
Why?

I mean what's the message with this?

@NiceGerbil

What is the point of this thread?

Is it to try and persuade people not to have the vaccine?
Bit late for that isn't it? Most of the adult population have.

Is it to try and worry people who have had the vaccine?
Why?

I mean what's the message with this?

I don’t know what the point of the thread is. I’ve been double vaccinated but I think it is our duty as citizens of the world to always remain curious and to hold our public service to account.

We must never be afraid to ask difficult questions or to continue to scrutinise what we’ve been told. That is the beauty of living in a democracy.

To not question, challenge and remain curious would be irresponsible.

What difficult questions?

Loads less people are dying. Result!

Citizens of the world? There are plenty of really corrupt/ totalitarian govts out there.

How do you think this will help them? Their situations are way more urgent.

And in the UK there are also things that are way more urgent when it comes to 'difficult questions'.

And you're not asking the govt. You're on a chatboard.

So what are you hoping to achieve?

@NiceGerbil

What difficult questions?

Loads less people are dying. Result!

Citizens of the world? There are plenty of really corrupt/ totalitarian govts out there.

How do you think this will help them? Their situations are way more urgent.

And in the UK there are also things that are way more urgent when it comes to 'difficult questions'.

And you're not asking the govt. You're on a chatboard.

So what are you hoping to achieve?

Presumably in the UK we can discuss more than one important issue at a time? I had no idea that our capacity to discuss and scrutinise important issues were limited to a handful? Mumsnet seems to be able to facilitate discussion of a wide range of issues.

Covid is one of the most important issues of our day and not asking questions about how it arose, how we as a nation handled it, the decisions related to vaccines, the impact of society, including business, education, the NHS, etc is frankly ridiculous.

The question is not about less people dying of Covid (it would be alarming if that wasn’t the case). It’s about the vaccine’s efficacy and hence the decision made based on that efficacy compared then to the socio-economic impact.

Someone had made a point that more vaccinated than expected are dying FROM Covid because there are more vaccinated people about. However, as I said before that is an odd thing to say as it isn’t consistent with the purpose of the vaccine.

We live in a democracy and it is because of that questioning and challenging we progress and do things better. Learning lessons and being ready to make better decision based on those lessons learned can only be a good thing.

A question I would ask is why is there a fear if question being asked? Are you afraid of what the answers might be? Thankfully, we are in a democracy and there are many universities and other institutions who will be analysing the data and helping bring together a picture. That might take time for a clear overall assessment of what the different results are saying but it will happen.

@ItllBeOverByChristmas

And frankly I think brokenbiscuits proved my point about some of the standard of reasoning pretty well.

What standard of reasoning? What I told you is true and concerning. If it’s happened to him it’s happened to others. Why would you put COVID on a cert when it wasn’t what necessary contributed to death? I’m not saying it’s done big conspiracy it might be normal practice, it’s skewing figures none the less. If someone could explain to me why this would happen I’d love to understand.

This might be a crap analogy (ok it is but it’s early) say you went into hospital for something say related to an ongoing condition you had and you happened to have a broken arm. You died from the ongoing condition get they also put broken arm on the cert.

Ok that was crap here’s a better one (maybe) . I have a thyroid condition, if I was to die of something else would they also put thyroid on there even though it was nothing to do with it?

The vaccine has never been about stopping people from dying

The vaccination is about stopping a pandemic and moving on with the economy from a political stand point, and its politicians running the show.

The other major objective from our PMs stand point is to protect the NHS as his image would be tarnished if it folded due to deaths from covid19

@brokenbiscuitsx many covid 19 deaths are dying 28 days after they have shown a positive test, they are not counted - as its only those who die within the 28 day

so the figures will not be accurate either way

looking at death registrations and extra deaths, will give a better indication. uk death registration figures are very accurate recording and as you have to register a death within a small time frame - very accurate to the situation

@bumbleymummy

Excess deaths aren’t all covid deaths. There have been a lot of missed diagnoses for various conditions over the last 18 months that are also sadly contributing.

There's some truth in that, but given the excess deaths correlate closely to Covid deaths then Covid is clearly the main reason.

@zafferana

Also, the vaccine isn't 100% effective. If you're elderly, double vaxxed and get Covid it can still kill you, but it's a lot less likely to kill you than if you were unvaxxed. Getting vaxxed reduces the risk by something like two-thirds, but it doesn't eradicate it.

The risk of getting ill os reduced by about that amount depending on the vaccine, but the reduction in risk of death or serious illness is far higher I believe.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

Do you really believe that's what people are saying?

That's exactly what many people have been pushing since the start of the pandemic, that Covid doesn't actually kill many people at all, and that the vast majority of deaths are "with" not "of" Covid.

Or do you actually understand that the concern is around the accuracy of the statistics and the numbers who actually died of covid as opposed to just having covid when they happened to die?

There's been plenty of analysis cited on this thread showing that Covid was the principle cause of death in 80-90% of cases.... so a not insignificant number of "with Covid" deaths, but nothing to support the trope that Covid is massively overblown because the vast majority of deaths would have happened anyway.

The immunocompromised, the unvaccinated, and the elderly.

Currently know someone who is in icu very sick, despite being vaccinated. Vaccines aren't foolproof. Also she had hers very early on so probably worn out by now.

Brokenbiscuits your story is less than convincing because
A) it's a FOAF
B) according to your account the subject went into hospital for something unrelated, caught Covid, died and had Covid put on the death certificate. You said nothing at all about whether Covid caused the death wholly or slightly. I guess that your story doesn't make any sense at all unless the original cause of entry to the hospital was a key driver of death, but even so, Covid has such an insidious multi system effect that it has the potential to accelerate death from any other cause, especially cardiovascular.
C) death certificates record two types of health conditions: those which directly cause the death and those which were relevant but not a direct cause. My DM died from complications of an operation to remove cancer and the death certificate records both the complications and the cancer in the direct cause of deaths section, and her ongoing dementia in the other relevant conditions section. We capture both for important statistical purposes. I don't think that it goes down as far as hypothyroidism in the "other conditions" box, but it would include something like diabetes or slow progressing cancer, or Covid for which the subject had received a positive test but which the attending doctor did not consider to have contributed to the death.

Your story is pointless because it doesn't tell us whether the Covid did contribute to death and which segment of the death certificate it was listed on.

@ItllBeOverByChristmas

Brokenbiscuits your story is less than convincing because A) it's a FOAF B) according to your account the subject went into hospital for something unrelated, caught Covid, died and had Covid put on the death certificate. You said nothing at all about whether Covid caused the death wholly or slightly. I guess that your story doesn't make any sense at all unless the original cause of entry to the hospital was a key driver of death, but even so, Covid has such an insidious multi system effect that it has the potential to accelerate death from any other cause, especially cardiovascular. C) death certificates record two types of health conditions: those which directly cause the death and those which were relevant but not a direct cause. My DM died from complications of an operation to remove cancer and the death certificate records both the complications and the cancer in the direct cause of deaths section, and her ongoing dementia in the other relevant conditions section. We capture both for important statistical purposes. I don't think that it goes down as far as hypothyroidism in the "other conditions" box, but it would include something like diabetes or slow progressing cancer, or Covid for which the subject had received a positive test but which the attending doctor did not consider to have contributed to the death.

Your story is pointless because it doesn't tell us whether the Covid did contribute to death and which segment of the death certificate it was listed on.

Ok.

I didn’t think I had to say. If he had died of COVID my whole point would have been, well, pointless. I’ll say it for you though. He didn’t die of COVID, he had COVID when he died.

No idea what a FOAF is and don’t care to be honest if it’s like your other unreasonable point.

Yes, I assumed that you meant that he died of something else - because your post is meaningless otherwise. But you didn't say what he died of, and whether it's something which Covid would likely have exacerbated, and you didn't say whether it was listed as the direct cause of death or under "other conditions".

If you still have doubts about the accuracy of the "deaths 28 days after positive test" stats, and the "deaths where Covid is recorded on death certificate" stats, then you should look to the excess death figures. They tell a very clear story, and it's the same as the PHE and the death certificate stats and the Covid test stats - two huge surges in cases which led to a huge number of deaths which would not otherwise have occurred at that time. A third surge which caused far fewer deaths due to the effect of vaccination. The only other explanation for all the data is a massive conspiracy including the ONS, and every doctor in the country.

FOAF just means friend of a friend, which generally means you don't have any direct knowledge

[quote JesusInTheCabbageVan]@LegendaryReady more than 1,000 fully vaccinated people in England have died from the Delta variant between 1 February and 29 August, according to Public Health England. During the same period, 536 unvaccinated people from all age groups died of COVID. Which speaks volumes for the efficacy of the vaccine when you take into account the take up rate.[/quote]
How can this be true? It gives a total of 1536 deaths. It's much more than that.

JesusInTheCabbageVan

@LegendaryReady more than 1,000 fully vaccinated people in England have died from the Delta variant between 1 February and 29 August, according to Public Health England. During the same period, 536 unvaccinated people from all age groups died of COVID. Which speaks volumes for the efficacy of the vaccine when you take into account the take up rate.

But which vaccine?

Also, research is suggesting efficacy wanes after a period of time. And there's newer strains including Delta that reduce the efficacy a bit. This isn't a surprise. We know that many vaccines (eg tetanus) lose efficacy after so long. We also know that vaccines sometimes need to be tweaked and/or topped up to deal with different strains (eg. flu).

All the vaccines are still very good and significantly lower the chances of being hospitalised or dying.

We simply need to do the same as the USA, Israel, France, and others. Booster jabs - for the elderly and clinically vulnerable, i.e. diabetics (between 1/5 and 1/3 of the Covid deaths worldwide have been in people with diabetes).

@Tealightsandd all the vaccines combined, I would have thought.

@Listener2021 just checked on gov.uk and yes, that does seem to be wrong! Wish I'd linked to the article now - will try to find it again.

Ok, here it is.

uk.news.yahoo.com/how-many-double-jabbed-people-are-dying-from-covid-151218361.html