Who’s dying if so many vaccinated?

[Flossie44]

So if the vaccination rate is about 80%, who’s in hospital/dying? Is it the 20% unvaccinated?

Hey @mnjustine or whoever, maybe it's time to do something about misinformation on this site. I keep getting told that 'robustly challenge on the thread' is the way forward, but then the same names just take the same lies from thread to thread no matter what information they've been given. As per-

**"Today 11:13PatriciaHolm
^^Pootle40

The deaths were always a combination of OF COVID and WITH COVID but many didn't like to hear that! The numbers due to Covid is actually quite small^^

Not this one again.

"Since March 2020 (when the first deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) were registered in England and Wales), where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate it was the underlying cause of death in most cases (88.9% in England, 87.3% in Wales). In July 2021, COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death for 83.5% of deaths that mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate in England and 80.5% in Wales."" **

I agree that some posters have selective blindness to the entire concept of excess deaths statistics. Their next door neighbour's granny had Covid put on the death certificate even though she actually died of having a piano fall on her, therefore Covid doesn't really kill although a single glance at the excess death stats would tell you the truth.

And they never saw the death certificate themselves, just heard someone who doesn't read very well talking about it

@Beautiful3

People die every day from all kinds of things. Unfortunately if they have covid as well as cancer/injury, then covid is put on the death certificate.

This! A friends relative went to hospital with something non-COVID related and died. Whilst in hospital he caught COVID and they put COVID on the death certificate. Makes you wonder about the figures if they are being skewed like this.

@ItllBeOverByChristmas

I agree that some posters have selective blindness to the entire concept of excess deaths statistics. Their next door neighbour's granny had Covid put on the death certificate even though she actually died of having a piano fall on her, therefore Covid doesn't really kill although a single glance at the excess death stats would tell you the truth.

Do you really believe that's what people are saying?

Or do you actually understand that the concern is around the accuracy of the statistics and the numbers who actually died of covid as opposed to just having covid when they happened to die?

Yes I do understand it. That's why we have three different sets of stats and triangulate the answers from that.

And frankly I think brokenbiscuits proved my point about some of the standard of reasoning pretty well.

@HHSchultz

I work with older people and honestly it's like Covid hasn't existed. No masks worn , unnecessary travel/ holidays, i am struggling to understand their behaviour.

Are you really struggling to understand why an older person might want some normality in their lives? Especially when they may not have years and years to spend cowering from one risk and heart disease, cancer and illnesses of old age are far far more likely to kill them than covid?

Remember that a lot of people who die and have Covid listed on their death certificate didn't die OF Covid, they died of heart disease or dementia or cancer or whatever, but at the time of their death they also happened to have Covid.

Also, the vaccine isn't 100% effective. If you're elderly, double vaxxed and get Covid it can still kill you, but it's a lot less likely to kill you than if you were unvaxxed. Getting vaxxed reduces the risk by something like two-thirds, but it doesn't eradicate it.

@zafferana

Remember that a lot of people who die and have Covid listed on their death certificate didn't die OF Covid, they died of heart disease or dementia or cancer or whatever, but at the time of their death they also happened to have Covid.

Also, the vaccine isn't 100% effective. If you're elderly, double vaxxed and get Covid it can still kill you, but it's a lot less likely to kill you than if you were unvaxxed. Getting vaxxed reduces the risk by something like two-thirds, but it doesn't eradicate it.

Well put.

@zafferana

"Remember that a lot of people who die and have Covid listed on their death certificate didn't die OF Covid, they died of heart disease or dementia or cancer or whatever, but at the time of their death they also happened to have Covid."

Arghhhhhh. Again....

"Since March 2020 (when the first deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) were registered in England and Wales), where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate it was the underlying cause of death in most cases (88.9% in England, 87.3% in Wales). In July 2021, COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death for 83.5% of deaths that mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate in England and 80.5% in Wales."

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/july2021

@Mintjulia

People who haven't had a second vaccine, or neither vaccine, and are CV or overweight.

Plus a few unlucky ones who aren't sufficiently protected by the vaccines.

According to the latest technical briefing it looks like a lot more then just a few unlucky ones who aren’t sufficiently protected by the injections.

I had also thought over 70 was considered more vulnerable but according to the briefing it’s over 50’s. Wouldn’t have considered a 50 year old as old.

@brokenbiscuitsx the quoted pretty has already been corrected and you must have misunderstood your friend, or your friend misunderstood the situation.

@zafferana

Remember that a lot of people who die and have Covid listed on their death certificate didn't die OF Covid, they died of heart disease or dementia or cancer or whatever, but at the time of their death they also happened to have Covid.

Also, the vaccine isn't 100% effective. If you're elderly, double vaxxed and get Covid it can still kill you, but it's a lot less likely to kill you than if you were unvaxxed. Getting vaxxed reduces the risk by something like two-thirds, but it doesn't eradicate it.

You're repeating a lie, please stop

@DameFanny Why is it a lie ?

Excess deaths aren’t all covid deaths. There have been a lot of missed diagnoses for various conditions over the last 18 months that are also sadly contributing.

Agree about excess deaths being due to other things too. We are in a mess.

Excess deaths track Covid deaths and infections very closely. If they were due to missed diagnoses in any significant numbers then we'd have seen excess deaths in August 2020 and April 2021. We didn't.

Have we seen the PHE report on deaths and hospitalisations admissions etc by vaccination status?

Page 15 &16.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/1016465/Vaccineesurveillancereportt-weekk_36.pdf

@userxx because deaths aren't attributed to covid unless they're due to covid. See the post at 13:15. And the one before, to and the one before that... Between 80.5% and 88.9% OF not WITH in the given example, depending on nation.

Also look at the posts by Abraxan and SaraClara re death certificates

According to a Malaysian study, the vaccines ARE pretty much preventing death there. Astra Zeneca leads the way with 99.42% death protection, with Pfizer slightly behind.

Who is dying?

Same as always. Those who have pre existing conditions/ lowered immune system/ the very elderly. (Sorry I know that sounds harsh).

People who are vulnerable health wise.

The omg look at the double vaccinated dying.

It's not an elixir of life. The vulnerable groups were vaccinated first. If they are vulnerable/ compromised immune system/ very elderly. Then it doesn't eliminate the risk (obviously?).

And the death rates are so so massively lower than at the peak. It can only be seen as a success.

In the end if the concern is the vaccine might not be that effective. That's a suspicion. And true or not having it is no big deal. And if doubts are incorrect and it does help. Then you are more protected and less likely to transmit.

It's a no brainer really.

It’s not about dying in general but dying from Covid. That’s the point. So the comparison is “of those who died from Covid …”