Who’s dying if so many vaccinated?

[Flossie44]

So if the vaccination rate is about 80%, who’s in hospital/dying? Is it the 20% unvaccinated?

@Name12341

'More vaccinated people are dying of the delta variant of covid than unvaccinated people, according to a recent report from Public Health England. The report shows that 489 of 742 people (65.9%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive covid test between 1 February 2021 and 2 August 2021, had received at least one dose of the vaccine. 54.1% (402 of 742) had received both doses. This seems like an alarming set of statistics, but with an imperfect vaccine and high vaccination coverage, it is exactly what we would expect.'

It is only alarming if you do not understand them.

The majority of people are now fully vaccinated, most of those who are not are younger and so are less likely to die even if infected or admitted to hospital. If we reached 100% vaccination then you would also be in a situation where 100% of those dying were vaccinated.

It is a mixture of unvaccinated, v old or vulnerable vaccinated (as they did not produce a good immune response to the vaccine) and the plain unlucky vaccinated.

The statistics show that the vaccines are massively protective from hospitalisation and death, but not the silver bullet we maybe hoped for.

It's not just dying "with but not of" Covid. If you flick through MN active you'll see many personal accounts of healthy double vaccinated women who've been really quite poorly with Covid (along with others who've had it with barely any symptoms). If you consider how that would affect a frail ninety year old it's hardly surprising that some of them will sadly still die. Vaccination might reduce the severity down to around flu levels but people do die of flu.

@Flossie44

So if the vaccination rate is about 80%, who’s in hospital/dying? Is it the 20% unvaccinated?

20% of a population of 60 million is a huge number of people without protection. It's a whopping 12 million people.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan I understood what you mean!

@arethereanyleftatall

Some of these stats quoted above are blooming stupid - of course more vaccinated people die - there is more!! And they're the more vulnerable in society. Ffs.

Can people not just die because they're old or unwell any more?

Do those people who think you can't die if you're vaccinated, think that about everything?!? So, hypothetically, you could get to 1000 years old because you've been vaccinated against everything?

Yabu.

That's what I was trying to get at with my questions to some of those just quoting the statistics. Some people just aren't thinking it through properly.

What happened to the basic knowledge of what %effective means?

Appalling maths education in this country and zero ability to understand the concepts of risk and probability , or even basic percentages quite frankly

If you were terminally ill and contracted flu and died, then I assume flu would be the main cause of death.

@Peaseblossum22

What happened to the basic knowledge of what %effective means?

Appalling maths education in this country and zero ability to understand the concepts of risk and probability , or even basic percentages quite frankly

It is why news organisations changed to 5 in 100. 20 in 100 etc. because too many people cannot understand percentages. Even worse that the 1/3 pound burger failed in America because when surveyed, the majority of people thought it was smaller than the 1/4 pounder.

Also worth noting the context of these statistics, summers optimal conditions from a low starting point after the previous lockdown. Delta was the blow we didn’t need.

Autumn and winter will be an entirely different beast.

@workshy44

Are people dying with covid and not from it?

^THIS

Particularly if you elderly / frail with other conditions

To be fair I think the propaganda around covid has entirely messed with people's heads. The narrative is that we must do everything possible - including destroying the economy and denying children an education - to avoid covid deaths and that the vaccine was the great saviour that would allow us to avoid the scourge of the Deadly Disease. I think in that context people are struggling to get their heads around a world where a certain number of deaths is just expected and not treated as a huge tragedy or national emergency.

I do find it interesting though that now people are talking about how it's the more elderly and vulnerable who die and that it's often 'with covid' rather than 'from covid.' That's always been the case, since the beginning of the pandemic and yet it wasn't acceptable to talk about the vulnerable being more likely to die back in 2020 because it was seen as dismissing them or not caring about their deaths.

It's simple maths. 100% vaccination would mean 100% of deaths would be in the vaccinated. The question is how many more would die without vaccination?

According to the ONS the majority of people admitted to hospital and dying are >70.
No word on vaccination status of those over 70 but I would imagine most are vaccinated but just have failing health.

The deaths were always a combination of OF COVID and WITH COVID but many didn't like to hear that! The numbers due to Covid is actually quite small

@MatildaIThink

Who is still dying? The unvaccinated. The vaccinated for whom the vaccine was not effective (immuno-compromised mostly, but some otherwise healthy who it occasionally will not work for). Those who would die regardless of vaccination, very close to death, weakened or immune suppressed. Those who are dying of something else and it is the thing that pushes them over the edge (like flu would in normal times). The unfortunate, some will get it badly whilst being otherwise healthy and vaccinated.

However if you look at the death figures they are hugely down, deaths vs infections have shifted dramatically as a result of vaccination. We all have to die of something, Covid will just end up being one of those things, like flu, pneumonia etc. that kill a lot of people when they are very unwell and are largely interchangeable.

This is well put. Also this It's not just dying "with but not of" Covid. If you flick through MN active you'll see many personal accounts of healthy double vaccinated women who've been really quite poorly with Covid (along with others who've had it with barely any symptoms). If you consider how that would affect a frail ninety year old it's hardly surprising that some of them will sadly still die. Vaccination might reduce the severity down to around flu levels but people do die of flu.

If we had 100% vaccinated then all those who died of covid would be vaccinated.

If you have advanced cancer then even a mild dose of covid could snatch away your last remaing weeks or months, as could flu or sepsis. I would argue that covid /flu or sepsis were the cause of death in those cases.

I got covid quite badly, immuno-compromised. Was hospitalised but not ICU. Could have been a different story without the vaccine or if I had been elderly.

I think threads like these are often people who want to justify to themselves not having the vaccine.

People who haven't had a second vaccine, or neither vaccine, and are CV or overweight.

Plus a few unlucky ones who aren't sufficiently protected by the vaccines.

[quote JesusInTheCabbageVan]@LegendaryReady more than 1,000 fully vaccinated people in England have died from the Delta variant between 1 February and 29 August, according to Public Health England. During the same period, 536 unvaccinated people from all age groups died of COVID. Which speaks volumes for the efficacy of the vaccine when you take into account the take up rate.[/quote]
80% vaccinated to 20% unvaccinated, but the deaths are 49%/51% from the two groups? Shows the vaccine is a lot more effective than not having it!

You need to look again at the excess death numbers over the past 18 months Pootle40. If most of the deaths were "with but not of covid" in people who would have died anyway then we wouldn't have had the huge mortality spikes we did.

@ACreakingGateNeverStops

According to the ONS the majority of people admitted to hospital and dying are >70. No word on vaccination status of those over 70 but I would imagine most are vaccinated but just have failing health.

This is why I can not fathom elderly people who aren’t wearing face masks, they are most at risk irrespective of vaccination status. So many are going to be ill or pass from Covid through careless decisions this winter.

I really hope the government start delivering the message that they need to start being cautious again otherwise the stats from this age group alone WILL put us back into lockdown.

Scotland publish the numbers on this - it doesn’t make for comfortable reading.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

To be fair I think the propaganda around covid has entirely messed with people's heads. The narrative is that we must do everything possible - including destroying the economy and denying children an education - to avoid covid deaths and that the vaccine was the great saviour that would allow us to avoid the scourge of the Deadly Disease. I think in that context people are struggling to get their heads around a world where a certain number of deaths is just expected and not treated as a huge tragedy or national emergency.

I do find it interesting though that now people are talking about how it's the more elderly and vulnerable who die and that it's often 'with covid' rather than 'from covid.' That's always been the case, since the beginning of the pandemic and yet it wasn't acceptable to talk about the vulnerable being more likely to die back in 2020 because it was seen as dismissing them or not caring about their deaths.

Very well put.

@MossyBottom
Exactly. I know two people close to me who have died of Covid (I know others, but not close), one was in his 90s, with end stage dementia and would have had at most 6 months to live. The other was in hospital on an oncology ward with, at that point with less than a week to live, but tested positive on the last day. Both are recorded as Covid deaths, both would have died by now even without Covid existing.

Of the other people who I know, or know of who died, some were otherwise fit and healthy from observation, but I do not know their medical history and others were obese, which seems to be a huge factor in death from Covid.

@DivGirl

Scotland publish the numbers on this - it doesn’t make for comfortable reading.

It only makes uncomfortable reading if you do not understand the data.

Many people who have died of Covid over the last 18 months probably died with Covid.
I don't think Covid kills as many as we think.
Also telhe vaccine never stated it would stop you from dying or catching or spreading Covid.