Who’s dying if so many vaccinated?

[Flossie44]

So if the vaccination rate is about 80%, who’s in hospital/dying? Is it the 20% unvaccinated?

@FreshFreesias

Many of them are double vaxxed. Plus a lot of the vaccinated are dealing with side effects such as blood clots and heart attacks. My cousin, my regular delivery driver and my neighbour all died in the last week from heart attacks. All in their early fifties.

Still far fewer than would have died of COVID though. As the stats clearly demonstrate.

Patricia thanks for balancing out posts with data.

@FreshFreesias

Many of them are double vaxxed. Plus a lot of the vaccinated are dealing with side effects such as blood clots and heart attacks. My cousin, my regular delivery driver and my neighbour all died in the last week from heart attacks. All in their early fifties.

No way.

@FreshFreesias

Many of them are double vaxxed. Plus a lot of the vaccinated are dealing with side effects such as blood clots and heart attacks. My cousin, my regular delivery driver and my neighbour all died in the last week from heart attacks. All in their early fifties.

They're really not. No-one who is double vaxxed has even reached ICU, never mind died, at my DD's hospital.

And she's not aware of any major vaccination related admissions.

I know that's just one hospital, but the national stats which I'm not about to search for are clear that double vaxxed people are very largely protected from fatal outcomes and serious illness. There are not "many" for whom breakthrough infection has resulted in a critical condition.

Yes thanks Patricia. I read that and thought "I bet her recollection's not actually true" but I was on my phone and the spreadsheet with the data is on my laptop.

My double vaccinated uncle - who was 59 but on the waiting list for a lung transplant, so incredibly vulnerable.

@saraclara I know that's just one hospital, but the national stats which I'm not about to search for are clear that double vaxxed people are very largely protected from fatal outcomes and serious illness. There are not "many" for whom breakthrough infection has resulted in a critical condition.

I think you and @FreshFreesias are using "many" in different contexts.

The PHE data already linked to above shows that for weeks 32-35 this year, 2,381 people died within 28 days of a positive test. 1,659 of them were fully vaxxed - as in, more than 2 weeks past their second dose.

1,659 out of 2,381 could reasonably be called "many", which I think is the way @FreshFreesias was referring to it.

However, as discussed above as well, the number of double vaxxed people in the UK is well into the millions now so the number of hospitalisations/deaths needs to be seen in proportion to that, and yes in those terms there is absolutely not many of the double vaxxed people being hospitalised/dying.

Saraclara your DD's experience should also be seen in light of the fact that many of the people dying at each stage of the pandemic will be very elderly and frail and will not be admitted to ICU. ICU occupancy has always skewed a couple of decades younger than deaths. So while a significant number of double vaccinated people are certainly dying, as per Patricia's data, an ICU practitioner might not see many of them.

@HHSchultz

I work with older people and honestly it's like Covid hasn't existed. No masks worn , unnecessary travel/ holidays, i am struggling to understand their behaviour.

I understand it completely... If you're at the end of your life, why would you waste the short time you have left hiding away and not living the life you have...

@HHSchultz

I work with older people and honestly it's like Covid hasn't existed. No masks worn , unnecessary travel/ holidays, i am struggling to understand their behaviour.

Also, unless you were very; very old, the vast majority of older people survived Covid before the vaccine.... Having been double jabbed, Covid is very unlikely to be fatal, so why would they cower from this virus for the rest of their days?

I agree @userxx

It’s this we’ve had 3 family members with terminal cancer but they’ve had (symptomless ) covid at the end and it’s covid that’s gone on death certificate not the cancer that was the real cause of death

I find that rather strange. I'm not in the UK, but I'm pretty sure our death certificates are the same in that they list all the conditions which led to death, not just one. Also, they may have had more time to live if they hadn't caught covid, so of course it could be a cause of death.

ACreakingGateNeverStops

100%, for some reason the healthy lifestyle/eating etc has never been a priority for this government. It would benefit the NHS overall too as less pressure. Smoking, drinking alcohol, the list goes on. Maybe the tax revenues from these streams are the reason.

@MsWarrensProfession

Saraclara your DD's experience should also be seen in light of the fact that many of the people dying at each stage of the pandemic will be very elderly and frail and will not be admitted to ICU. ICU occupancy has always skewed a couple of decades younger than deaths. So while a significant number of double vaccinated people are certainly dying, as per Patricia's data, an ICU practitioner might not see many of them.

She works on a normal Covid ward. So yes she sees the older people (and younger people) who don't make it to ICU. And her colleagues in ICU are giving her the information about their own unit.

@gofg

It’s this we’ve had 3 family members with terminal cancer but they’ve had (symptomless ) covid at the end and it’s covid that’s gone on death certificate not the cancer that was the real cause of death

I find that rather strange. I'm not in the UK, but I'm pretty sure our death certificates are the same in that they list all the conditions which led to death, not just one. Also, they may have had more time to live if they hadn't caught covid, so of course it could be a cause of death.

Their cancer (and its specific effect) will be the main cause of death, and Covid will only be mentioned incidentally.

I have such a UK death certificate right in front of me @IdontUnderstamd. I'm sorry, but whoever told you that the cancer was not listed as the cause of death for these three people was either lying to you, or you misunderstood them.

@DameFanny

o NHS - cut to the bone in repeated attacks since 2010, leaving it without any contingency for this kind of event. And the pandemic planning that was in place was apparently ripped up by the Tories and the stocks of PPE allowed to run down

I'm no great fan of the Government, but this is just pure propaganda unmoored from reality..... Any review of the facts will quickly show that the NHS had real-terms above inflation increases annually, and has not been subjected to the cuts inflicted on many other areas. The issue is that demand has outpaced even these funding increases.

You can argue that the Tories haven't adequately funded the NHS, but it's a lie to say that it's funding has been cut in repeated "attacks".

It’s this we’ve had 3 family members with terminal cancer but they’ve had (symptomless ) covid at the end and it’s covid that’s gone on death certificate not the cancer that was the real cause of death

I'm sorry you've had such loss... The odds against the exact same thing happening 3 times to family members appear to be astronomical!

The ONS did a review last year which showed that Covid was the primary cause of death in over 90% of cases when it was listed on the death certificate. So where there are clearly some deaths where Covid is identified on the death certificate as a secondary cause, it's a distinct minority.

[quote Warhertisuff]@DameFanny

o NHS - cut to the bone in repeated attacks since 2010, leaving it without any contingency for this kind of event. And the pandemic planning that was in place was apparently ripped up by the Tories and the stocks of PPE allowed to run down

I'm no great fan of the Government, but this is just pure propaganda unmoored from reality..... Any review of the facts will quickly show that the NHS had real-terms above inflation increases annually, and has not been subjected to the cuts inflicted on many other areas. The issue is that demand has outpaced even these funding increases.

You can argue that the Tories haven't adequately funded the NHS, but it's a lie to say that it's funding has been cut in repeated "attacks".[/quote]
Additional funding directed at private providers and forcing NHS clinicians to work as administrators to bid to retain their work is not additional funding. You've fallen for Tory propaganda yourself.

And with nursing bursaries gone, the cost of medical training ever rising and European medics put off - or even sent home - by brexit, there's no quick turnaround even if the new funding goes to the right places

Warher, they don't have to hide away for the rest of their lives, but maybe wear a mask, as soon as they were double jabbed masks came off, no thought for those who had to wait for the vaccine.

Also when I see the sacrifices that children and young people have had to make it makes them even more selfish I think.

97% of those hospitalised with Covid are unvaccinated so based on that I would say yes

Lol, we just making stuff up now 😂

PHE says is 55%, 35% fully vaccinated. I'm more inclined to believe them tbh.

@Pootle40

The deaths were always a combination of OF COVID and WITH COVID but many didn't like to hear that! The numbers due to Covid is actually quite small

Sure, sure. Any actual statistics to back that (nonsense) up??

People also die 'from Covid' after 28 days, but aren't included, so...

@Pootle40

The deaths were always a combination of OF COVID and WITH COVID but many didn't like to hear that! The numbers due to Covid is actually quite small

So excess deaths. Not a thing?

@Pootle40

The deaths were always a combination of OF COVID and WITH COVID but many didn't like to hear that! The numbers due to Covid is actually quite small

Not this one again.

"Since March 2020 (when the first deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) were registered in England and Wales), where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate it was the underlying cause of death in most cases (88.9% in England, 87.3% in Wales). In July 2021, COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death for 83.5% of deaths that mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate in England and 80.5% in Wales."

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/july2021

So, no. The vast majority of people who are recorded with Covid on the death certificate had Covid as the underlying cause of death.

@Ontheblink

ACreakingGateNeverStops

100%, for some reason the healthy lifestyle/eating etc has never been a priority for this government. It would benefit the NHS overall too as less pressure. Smoking, drinking alcohol, the list goes on. Maybe the tax revenues from these streams are the reason.

Sadly there could be some truth in what you say.

I find it incredibly sad that many people are not more proactive regarding their health and appear to sleepwalk into avoidable illnesses caused by poor lifestyle choices.