96 dead today...

[Homeontherangeuk]

But Boris knows what he's doing...

there is something very wrong with our tax system - worldwide, not just UK.

This is a much bigger conversation than this thread

@TheKeatingFive

there is something very wrong with our tax system - worldwide, not just UK.

This is a much bigger conversation than this thread

Agre but maybe don't dismiss it in such an off hand manner then?

Agre but maybe don't dismiss it in such an off hand manner then?

I’m not sure what you want me to do when you segue into global taxation like that?

It’s a big topic.

@MarshaBradyo

Wake up!!

Posts that shout this usually aren’t based on any sort of relevant factors.

You’re better off to compare with Europe or NYC for location, timing on curve and culture.

Why? I suppose you could compare Trump and BJ... If you want a more densely populated area we could compare Taiwan's low death rate with the UK.

Taiwan's low death rate with the UK.

I don’t know much about Taiwan, but I’m presuming they don’t have a land border with another country that international law says they can’t close.

[quote Blessex]@Luckyrid whenever we talk about NZ nobody is ever that clear on what they will do next.[/quote]
least of all our govt who now leave it all up to us. "Trust the common sense of the British people". Lol

Vaccines don’t stop you getting covid or passing it on. They’re meant to stop you from dying.
We will all probably get sick in winter because we’ve no immunity - to anything.

@Suzi888

Vaccines don’t stop you getting covid or passing it on. They’re meant to stop you from dying. We will all probably get sick in winter because we’ve no immunity - to anything.

They have been shown to both reduce your chance of catching covid and your chance of passing it on.

@MrsFin

Well done . UKs pop is 12 times NZ. NZ had 26 deaths. By that rate the UK should have around 300 deaths ... The UKs deaths are 500 times that ! We are around 150 THOUSAND

Completely different situation.
U.K. is a densely populated, major transport and trading hub, with holiday, sport event and business destinations on its doorstep.

NZ isn't.

Ummm ...pretty sure the sports stadiums clubs and bars get just as packed as ours. NZ is a holiday destination. NZ has big cities. They don't all live on a farm. If you like you could compare with Taiwan which is much more densely populated than the UK and right next to China so they had less warning.

@TheKeatingFive

So, vaxx antibodies are different from natural immunity acquired ones?

Why would that be surprising?

Is this because the vaccines themselves do not target specific virus mutations?

I don't think any of us are miles apart, no one here would divest others of their liberties. We all want the same outcome. Unfortunately I think with Bojo and pals its a huge leap forward now followed by some sheepish foot shuffling in a few weeks. The man is a fool. And I think if he shuffles out front to announce any measures whatsoever he will have lost all credibility and trust. Thats from all of us irrespective of whether we think we need restrictions or not.

In the meantime infection rates are rising, and so too will death rates. And that is why I refer to preventable deaths. If he acted other than he should, and then only after did as he should, then all deaths due to the wrong action could be said to be preventable, simply by virtue that any other action might have prevented those deaths. And if I were him this would keep my awake at night. Because that is manslaughter!

Asian countries have the advantage of no pesky GDPR laws when it comes to tracing and tracing. So, access to bank card/mobile data, access to all cctv footage, ability to publish geolocations of covid sufferers online.

That really helps.

Mini but if restrictions just delay then are they preventable? What changes in months etc time to stop same outcome, or do we not release?

How do you see that part

@Fairyliz

Canada has half the population of the U.K. and is 41 times bigger. We have lots of people crammed into a tiny area that’s why it spreads so easily.
If you add in the fact that we have an elderly, unfit and obese population it’s no wonder our numbers are high.

I'm sorry but most of these excuses are a nonsense.

Yes, Canada is 41 times larger than the UK, but more than 80% of that landmass is uninhabited.

Canada's population is confined to less than 20% of the country, and 80%+ of people live in cities, which are often densely populated (Toronto isn't quite as dense as London, but its in the same ballpark).

Canada's average age and obesity rates are both basically identical to the UK's.

Yes, our population is only half the size of the UK's but your Covid rate is 170 times higher.

Your government has completely fucked it.

Is this because the vaccines themselves do not target specific virus mutations?

I honestly don’t know, not my area. But a quick google will indicate that reinfection after having covid is a lot rarer than infection post vaccine.

If he acted other than he should, and then only after did as he should, then all deaths due to the wrong action could be said to be preventable, simply by virtue that any other action might have prevented those deaths.

But these ‘actions’ are all infringements of what we used to consider people’s civil liberties. None of these actions were countenanced for any other illness before. Why are they they any different to banning all cars from the road?

Also, without going hard lockdown, they are unlikely to make much difference. I’m in ROI. Our delta cases are spiralling despite no outdoor hospitality and a ban on meeting indoors. It would take hard lockdown, March 2020 style, to make a difference.

They seem to be calling all viruses COVID 19

Who are 'they'? Because my job would be a lot easier if I was one of 'them' - would knock at least 10 minutes of each handover.

NZ has big cities

No it doesn't. There are more people in London than in the whole of New Zealand.

Well maybe Auckland, but that's it.

MarshaBradyo my understanding is that the government have said to exit all restrictions knowing this drives rates of infection and that rising infection rates and rising hospital admissions have less impact now on the NHS than in the winter flu season.

However, they haven't made the case that its safe to lift restrictions now, or indeed at any point later. Or at least they haven't made a convincing argument that its safe, or even outright said 'freedom day' is the end of all pandemic restrictions going forward. They have though intimated this and many will believe 'exit' to be just that. Slightly less than 70% of the adult population has had a second vaccine. Whilst Bojo keeps pointing to vaccination rates and vaccines as a protective factor we are in no way in a position to lift all restrictions, and that will become clear when he starts back peddling in a few weeks. By which time even less people will have any faith in this government. If I were in his position I would consider my future not in terms of who might pay my future wages but in terms of what my legacy is, not in terms of my now popularity but in respect of accountability to those I have a duty to. The man is a sociopathic liar and a twat of the highest order. No wonder the rest of the world and 1400 scientists are gawking and saying the man is conducting a murderous and unethical experiment.

The rate at which new variants and mutations occur coupled with the conditions for vaccine escaping variants to have the advantage, I don't think anyone can predict that a third (or so called exit) wave will prevent a 4th wave in November or December. Thats unless someone can show us the virus likes a regular long holiday from its usual MO . The only bloody vacation it takes is when we all sit at home for months.

@TheKeatingFive

Is this because the vaccines themselves do not target specific virus mutations?

I honestly don’t know, not my area. But a quick google will indicate that reinfection after having covid is a lot rarer than infection post vaccine.

If he acted other than he should, and then only after did as he should, then all deaths due to the wrong action could be said to be preventable, simply by virtue that any other action might have prevented those deaths.

But these ‘actions’ are all infringements of what we used to consider people’s civil liberties. None of these actions were countenanced for any other illness before. Why are they they any different to banning all cars from the road?

Also, without going hard lockdown, they are unlikely to make much difference. I’m in ROI. Our delta cases are spiralling despite no outdoor hospitality and a ban on meeting indoors. It would take hard lockdown, March 2020 style, to make a difference.

I agree. I worry that governments now will see this time as having proven to them that people can very easily be lulled into giving up their freedoms. I don't have the answer. I just think that life even bare life at least gives us the hope of a better life, whereas no life, one extinguished entirely is just dead.

This is an interesting read about the possibility of bare life over death.

"ultimately conclude that, in reading these pieces together, we are drawn to the task of considering the powerful and generative ubiquity of “bare life” as a fundamental aspect of biopolitics in the contemporary neoliberal era of normalized insecurity and terror."

Ultimately to live is to have hope. And no this is not some religious hocus pocus about the sanctity of life. Governments have control over life and death. They must be made accountable for those decisions, because deprivation of one's life is the ultimate incursion on their liberty.

anthrobiopolitics.wordpress.com/tag/bare-life/

I agree too nothing short of hard lockdown is effective in stopping the Delta. What can be done?

t. Slightly less than 70% of the adult population has had a second vaccine. Whilst Bojo keeps pointing to vaccination rates and vaccines as a protective factor we are in no way in a position to lift all restrictions, and that will become clear when he starts back peddling in a few weeks

I agree, but am aghast that Boris and his government STILL haven't learned their lesson on overpromising, acting in haste and not listening to their own scientists before the inevitable back pedal when it all goes tits up again. I mean really, the way this all keeps playing out is almost farcical now, yet the man is like teflon - nothing sticks to him. o matter how badly he KEEPS fucking up, people continue to defend him and deny the sheer magnitude of his incompetence, failure to lead effectively and inadequacy as PM. It's so depressing!

@Backofbeyond50

It's not do much about being overloaded with covid that is the issue. It is about the backlog which can only be cleared if hospital admissions remain low.

Surely then it better to have a higher peak now and get it out the way over a short period of time, than a medium peak over a long period of time. The latter will be the one that causes issues with more backlog especially over the winter months.

@Tuba437 I am hoping that admissions remain low full stop but there are no guarantees with the virus.

[quote Ratalie]@Fairyliz

Canada has half the population of the U.K. and is 41 times bigger. We have lots of people crammed into a tiny area that’s why it spreads so easily.
If you add in the fact that we have an elderly, unfit and obese population it’s no wonder our numbers are high.

I'm sorry but most of these excuses are a nonsense.

Yes, Canada is 41 times larger than the UK, but more than 80% of that landmass is uninhabited.

Canada's population is confined to less than 20% of the country, and 80%+ of people live in cities, which are often densely populated (Toronto isn't quite as dense as London, but its in the same ballpark).

Canada's average age and obesity rates are both basically identical to the UK's.

Yes, our population is only half the size of the UK's but your Covid rate is 170 times higher.

Your government has completely fucked it.[/quote]
The issue with the uk is there are so many cities close together. Many many people commute between cities daily. You can drive from one side of the country to the other in only a few hours. Big countries such as Australia are much more spread out so different cities and communities don't tend to mix as much. Hence why local restrictions work much better their.

Tier 3 lockdown was pointless in say Manchester and Liverpool and far too many commute between the 2 daily. Same goes for Bristol and Bath or Newcastle and Sunderland.

@Suzi888

Vaccines don’t stop you getting covid or passing it on. They’re meant to stop you from dying. We will all probably get sick in winter because we’ve no immunity - to anything.

Agreed here. My youngest has started nursery this spring and must have caught 6 coughs or colds already as she has 0 immunity to anything as most of her life has been spent not socialising.

The issue with the uk is there are so many cities close together. Many many people commute between cities daily. You can drive from one side of the country to the other in only a few hours. Big countries such as Australia are much more spread out so different cities and communities don't tend to mix as much. Hence why local restrictions work much better their.

Tier 3 lockdown was pointless in say Manchester and Liverpool and far too many commute between the 2 daily. Same goes for Bristol and Bath or Newcastle and Sunderland.
I do agree this. The UK certainly has some geographic disadvantages compared to various other counties. However, I am far from convinced that they justify the UK doing so much worse than basically every country on the the planet (often by huge magnitudes).

@LemonSwan

The fuck that brigade, with their personal responsibility, which basically translates to "I'm alright jack and did everyone else"

Yeah thats you btw!

'I am alright jack' while minimum wage carers were working through the pandemic unvaccinated caring for those with covid because they kept getting sent out of hospital with covid. To those shop workers who enabled you to eat. To the delivery drivers. To the energy, water, emergency services - you name it.

Was OK for them to keep working wasn't it.

Your fucking turn now. And if you dont want to thats fine. But dont you dare getting on a fucking high horse and stop other people living their lives when thousands in this country risked theirs with no vaccinations for over a year.

You want it all. Food in your shops, delivery to your door, no risk, low infection rates, perpetual lockdowns/ restrictions and for you to be the ones continually wrapped up in cotton wool. Your just take take take. Dont want to take any personal responsibility. Because your all right jack.

And thats that.

Leaving this thread its infuriating.

👏👏👏👏👏🙌