Anti-Vax - what is the source?

[pennyspenny]

Two of my good friends have become anti- Vax

We don't discuss it (barely seen each other) but they post a lot on social media about pharmaceutical companies being evil etc

They also attend freedom marches together and post photos of them hugging strangers

I also think they're distancing themselves from the rest of the group. Making plans together and declining invitations to meet with feeble excuse. Maybe I'm just paranoid

But I find myself wondering, where are they getting this info from?

We're all 40s with busy jobs and families. Sensible, educated and (relatively) clean living people. What's gotten into them?

Where do these theories start?

Are they actually anti-vaxx or have they just decided not to have the COVID vaccine?

Just covid as far as I know

There's a pretty good C4 doc about it (The Anti-Vax Conspiracy), but also it's very easy to manipulate somebody into believing something that they want to believe.

@pennyspenny

Just covid as far as I know

Well you need to change your title as its misleading. Anti vax is different to being suspicious/cautious over the covid vaccine.

My kids have had all their jabs. but they won't be having the covid one till I see the full data back. Which tbh is pretty sensible.

It really good people dont agree with each other as other wise we would be all on one hive mentality, one collective (shudder)

For the "smarter" people, it arises from a need to feel superior, to stand out from the crowd. Different people approach this in different ways, but the message "Don't be a sheeple" is actually quite a powerful one.

On the one hand you may have the sensible/fact-based option, but it's the one the herd has chosen - so if you want to stand out, you have to choose the alternative option. So what if the facts are a bit shakey - that's just opinion isn't it... and yes only a minority believe this but that's because we're enlightened i.e. NOT part of the crowd. Superior intellects....

This isn't the ONLY reason of course - some people are easily influenced by those around them.

The whole anti BIG-Pharma thing began in the States, where it actually makes a kind of sense. The amount of money involved over there is staggering and who's to say that pharamaceutical companies aren't in league with healthcare providers to give you unecessary drugs at huge expense.... etc... But this whole argument doesn't make any sense at all in the UK because even if pharamaceutical companies were evil, there's nothing in it for the NHS to buy unecessary drugs. Healthcare is free at the point of delivery, so it's not like they could be ripping us all off.

Someone investigated this and determined that there were about 12 'original sources', dubbed 'The Disinformation Dozen' for most, if not all, the Covid-19 conspiracy theories.

Most of them either had something to sell or had a vested financial interest in some of the 'cures', like Ivermectin.

www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes

www.counterhate.com/disinformationdozen

There's a 40 page downloadable report on the Counter Hate website - the list of the culprits starts on page 10

There are a number of highly subscribed organisations and social media accounts which rely on the Disinformation Dozen for their claims.

On the one hand you may have the sensible/fact-based option, but it's the one the herd has chosen - so if you want to stand out, you have to choose the alternative option.

Right, because someone can’t look at the facts eg the risk of COVID to someone of their age/sex/ethnicity etc and make a different decision without it being an attempt to ‘stand out from the crowd’

@bumbleymummy

On the one hand you may have the sensible/fact-based option, but it's the one the herd has chosen - so if you want to stand out, you have to choose the alternative option.

Right, because someone can’t look at the facts eg the risk of COVID to someone of their age/sex/ethnicity etc and make a different decision without it being an attempt to ‘stand out from the crowd’

Quite!

For the "smarter" people, it arises from a need to feel superior, to stand out from the crowd. Different people approach this in different ways, but the message "Don't be a sheeple" is actually quite a powerful one.

This just isn't the case though.

I was on that UsForThem facebook group in the very beginning because I thought their aim was to put pressure on the gov to get schools open in Scotland (something which should have been done by some kind of gov opposition had the Scottish gov not turned into a hive mind).

It got increasingly anti-mask and anti covid vaccine, and I actually made a couple of frustrated comments about it. In my head I thought they were unintelligent and almost a bit hysterical. Did I think I was superior to them? Yes, absolutely.

I was planning to get my jag when the rest of Europe started making noises about the AZ rare clotting issue, and the way the gov, the scientists, and the media dealt with this in the UK was raising alarm bells for me. Had this gut feeling saying that something was not right here. So I cancelled the appointment and actually started researching.

Reading the data from the actual companies. Finding out exactly how and why they were approved. I've worked in medical device manufacturing before so I know all about GMP etc. I know how long it takes to launch a medical / defence product more than most.

The further I went in the research, the more experts who spoke up, the more convinced I am that cancelling that appointment was the best thing.

I'm sure there are some people who talk about microchips and yes, they appear to be extremely misguided, but I would not be surprised if the microchip theories are essentially a massive troll to discredit anyone who has genuine (and completely unrelated) concerns.

Not anti-vax. Not vaccine 'hesitant' either. I just don't personally want the vaccines we have been offered right now.

@poweredbyplants

There's a pretty good C4 doc about it (The Anti-Vax Conspiracy), but also it's very easy to manipulate somebody into believing something that they want to believe.

I found that programme a waste of time. It tells the old anti vax story but not the current one.

I have a couple of friends who have done similar. It is all about the Covid vaccine. Sadly I think the way the government have handled it and the lack of transparency have a lot to do with it.

In terms of hugging strangers, I would say it's important to remember how desperately lonely many of us have been.

Just prior to Covid, I had a really bad experience with doctors and narrowly avoided being treated for cancer - which I don't have. It only takes one such experience for all trust to evaporate.

You don't know what experiences they might have had.

I had my first vaccine but I now don't think it was a good choice.

Most of them either had something to sell or had a vested financial interest in some of the 'cures', like Ivermectin.

Didn't Merck come out and post a statement that refuted all claims about Ivermectin?

https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

You'd think if they had a vested financial interest they'd be doing exactly the opposite?

Although it is interesting that they've just been given gov funding to research a new treatment, and since this will be a new treatment, it will be patent protected for years and thus whatever they develop will not be cheap and widely available for manufacture like... Ivermectin.

There’s an Ivermectin trial starting in the U.K.

www.bbc.com/news/health-57570377

@bumbleymummy about time.

Considering Chris Whitty himself has been involved in studies on Ivermectin for other uses which said "ivermectin, a drug with a good safety profile" I really can't understand why they haven't called for it sooner.

I love how people think they are in a better position to assess the data than the MHRA.

Where's your doctorate and extensive expertise in statistics/medicine etc? But you are much better placed than MHRA

I have not had the covid vaccine but I am not anti vax at all, I have just chosen not to have this particular vaccine in the same way I chose not to have the flu vaccine every year, despite it being offered (encouraged) in my workplace. No one has ever called me anti vax for that.

I hate the way anyone who hasn't had the vaccine for whatever reason are automatically judged as if they are just a stupid conspiracy theorist.

Do people really think that there are ordinary normally sensible people, holding down jobs, who believe that they will be microchipped, or become magnetic or that Bill Gates is tracking them. Honesty coming out with that rubbish just makes you sound ridiculous!

Fed up on the same rubbish being spouted. People are allowed to have medical and body autonomy, without someone trying to ridicule them and say things like 'oh don't worry, my mobile signal hasn't improved since I've been double jabbed'. That just makes you sound ridiculous, not like some comedic genius who will make someone rush to the vaccine clinic 🙄

@CornforthWhiteH can you share the article you found that the vaccine has killed every animal it was tested on please?

@whistleflower

Most of them either had something to sell or had a vested financial interest in some of the 'cures', like Ivermectin.

Didn't Merck come out and post a statement that refuted all claims about Ivermectin?

[[https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic]]/

You'd think if they had a vested financial interest they'd be doing exactly the opposite?

Although it is interesting that they've just been given gov funding to research a new treatment, and since this will be a new treatment, it will be patent protected for years and thus whatever they develop will not be cheap and widely available for manufacture like... Ivermectin.

not this again

currently there is not robust evidence to show ivermectin is either effective and safe in treating COVID - the existing body of work is flawed by methodological issues. The much touted meta-analysis claiming to find protective effects is simply combined and amplifying all these biased studies.

The only way to understand if ivermectin actually is helpful is to test it in a well powered RCTs, which is exactly what's happening right now in the UK and other countries.

Doesn't sound like something "they" would do if they were trying to block it's use for profits (and doesn't explain why other cheap drugs like dexamethasone have been approved after RCTs)

[quote whistleflower]@bumbleymummy about time.

Considering Chris Whitty himself has been involved in studies on Ivermectin for other uses which said "ivermectin, a drug with a good safety profile" I really can't understand why they haven't called for it sooner. [/quote]
the key there is "ivermectin for other uses"

just because a drug is effective and safe in treating some diseases (ie mainly parasitic) does not automatically make it safe in treating others. This is particularly important in terms of coronavirus, where a much higher dose than has been previously used is needed to reach therapeutic levels in the lungs.

A list of candidate drugs to reposition in RCTs was drawn up based on the strength of evidence based on biological rationale. There was simply less theoretical to trial ivermectin first compared to other existing cheap drugs

www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n747

[quote worriedmother1]@CornforthWhiteH can you share the article you found that the vaccine has killed every animal it was tested on please?[/quote]
it doesn't exist

this poster (or someone very similar) made these claims before and then tried linking an animal study from the 1990s which was not on vaccines, not using mRNA technology and not on SARS-COV-2. It's just another anti-vax claim started and then repeated by people on SM.

The MHRA adverse effects is a pretty good starting point TBH

@whistleflower

For the "smarter" people, it arises from a need to feel superior, to stand out from the crowd. Different people approach this in different ways, but the message "Don't be a sheeple" is actually quite a powerful one.

This just isn't the case though.

I was on that UsForThem facebook group in the very beginning because I thought their aim was to put pressure on the gov to get schools open in Scotland (something which should have been done by some kind of gov opposition had the Scottish gov not turned into a hive mind).

It got increasingly anti-mask and anti covid vaccine, and I actually made a couple of frustrated comments about it. In my head I thought they were unintelligent and almost a bit hysterical. Did I think I was superior to them? Yes, absolutely.

I was planning to get my jag when the rest of Europe started making noises about the AZ rare clotting issue, and the way the gov, the scientists, and the media dealt with this in the UK was raising alarm bells for me. Had this gut feeling saying that something was not right here. So I cancelled the appointment and actually started researching.

Reading the data from the actual companies. Finding out exactly how and why they were approved. I've worked in medical device manufacturing before so I know all about GMP etc. I know how long it takes to launch a medical / defence product more than most.

The further I went in the research, the more experts who spoke up, the more convinced I am that cancelling that appointment was the best thing.

I'm sure there are some people who talk about microchips and yes, they appear to be extremely misguided, but I would not be surprised if the microchip theories are essentially a massive troll to discredit anyone who has genuine (and completely unrelated) concerns.

Not anti-vax. Not vaccine 'hesitant' either. I just don't personally want the vaccines we have been offered right now.

So:

Superiority complex - check
Did "own research" - check
Conspiracy theory - check

The OP asked HOW people got sucked into this - I answered, and you perfectly proved my point, so thank you for that.

Incidentally, I'm not judging you here any more than I'd judge anyone who got drawn into a cult. Some people are just susceptible to this kind of thing and it has no reflection on their intelligence or prior personality.

@poweredbyplants

There's a pretty good C4 doc about it (The Anti-Vax Conspiracy), but also it's very easy to manipulate somebody into believing something that they want to believe.

It certainly is easy! Look at everyone running to get the vaccine believing there will be an end to this!

Agree the channel 4 documentary is really good.

There is a lot of bollocks talked about "why" people believe antivax conspiracies but it all really boils down to trust. If you trust the government, health system etc then you'll lean towards going with what they suggest even if you don't 100% agree with every single statement or action, because you believe that they are generally competent and have your best interests at heart.

If you've been repeatedly let down by the government/other forms of authority/the health service etc then this idea that the government has your best interests at heart might be laughable. The idea that they are competent generally less secure. IME, this tends to be those belonging to certain groups, with an higher likelihood of mistrust the more of these groups somebody belongs to. Education actually has very little effect, it's much more about life experience and to an extent how much you feel that the government are "people like me".

These kinds of groups:

People of low socio-economic status
Ethnic minorities
People who live any kind of "alternative" lifestyle
People who have experienced discrimination from authority figures
People with trauma
People with mental health issues

The really predatory antivaxxers prey on this scepticism/gap in trust in order to make money. They use tactics similar to the ones that abusers use when grooming victims. They make marginalised people feel listened to and heard. They use personal anecdotes (feels more human) rather than data (which marginalised people are often on the "wrong side" of so tend to find hard to trust or feel sceptical about) in order to twist the narrative in their own direction and they encourage secrecy because those people who you don't trust won't listen to you. Which unfortunately is kind of true, so it works well for them.

The less predatory but still unfortunately harmful antivaxxers are simply trying to support one another because they understand what it's like to feel marginalised. They feel accepted/heard by these different narratives and it feels genuine, is more accessible, or makes more sense to them than the narrative they hear from the "mainstream media", so they pass it on out of a genuine belief that this is the "real" truth and that people are being duped or listening to the wrong experts. It's not evil, it's actually caring/well-meaning, just unfortunately based on a faulty premise.

The problem (to me) is that there are geniune reasons for a feeling of mistrust and scepticism among groups like these. It's a huge issue and goes far beyond vaccinations. We are as a society (and many societies are) failing huge groups of people, and it seems we only really care when it comes up as an issue like oh no - some people don't want to get vaccinated now. Oh no, people don't trust the police and take revenge into their own hands. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if we had been listening to them in the first place, if our governments contained more diversity, if it was an open conversation rather than assuming that people like this are "just a minority" or even an "underclass" and don't matter. All people matter.

@Scrambledcustard
Exactly!

What is dreadful are the people who are getting the vaccine but then spewing out hatred for those who choose not to. It would be weird if everyone just robotically did exactly what they were told to do without questioning it.

Most people choosing not to have the vaccine (at this time) are not anti vaccine they are just looking at whether it is the answer and if it poses any further risk.

If the government were planning on divide and conquer they have done a marvellous job!