Anti-Vax - what is the source?

[pennyspenny]

Two of my good friends have become anti- Vax

We don't discuss it (barely seen each other) but they post a lot on social media about pharmaceutical companies being evil etc

They also attend freedom marches together and post photos of them hugging strangers

I also think they're distancing themselves from the rest of the group. Making plans together and declining invitations to meet with feeble excuse. Maybe I'm just paranoid

But I find myself wondering, where are they getting this info from?

We're all 40s with busy jobs and families. Sensible, educated and (relatively) clean living people. What's gotten into them?

Where do these theories start?

Bonnie we're in agreement that government is lying. But then we head in opposite directions... Rather than inflating figures (we can see the excess deaths to know that the figures are real), the problem is downplaying.

For example, 'flu' cases seem to be increasing right now. In the UK (not so much other countries). Despite currently a low prevalence worldwide. Add in that at least 30% of PCR tests return false negatives...and then that improved treatments has meant more Covid patients dying after 28 days. And then that many apparently recovered Covid patients discharged from hospital go on to die within the next 6 months...

Yeah. If anything deaths are being underplayed.

As is Long Covid. Massively.

@BonnieDundee

I think when the scientists and government have lied to us over inflated figures to justify lockdowns, there is a massive issue with trust and any alternative views will flourish in that situation.

You shouldn't generalise and call people who decline the covid vaccine anti vaxxers. I don't know anyone who is an anti vaxxer to my knowledge. I know a few who are
not having this vaccine

Yes, the term, and it is a legal one, is vaccine hesitant, not anti-vaxx

The two are completely different things in legal terms.

@ollyollyoxenfree
Wrong video

Big difference between being antivax and not wanting to take a vaccine that doesn’t have any data on long term side effects. I’ve had Covid, don’t see why I need to take the vaccine offering the same antibodies I already have.

[quote lightand]@ollyollyoxenfree
Wrong video[/quote]
@lightand

ok if that's not the video, then share the link?

As I have said, I've not been able to find any evidence of Bill Gates making this statement despite you saying it's been watched millions of times

Forget Bill Gates. Am I a robot? (In disguise). 🤖

@ollyollyoxenfree me neither

So many women reporting on the vaccine having an effect on their menstrual cycle - who knows the long term effects on hormones, fertility etc
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4278848-have-you-had-period-oddness-since-the-covid-vaccine

It's funny actually. Around 4,000 women, (out of millions who've had the vaccines) report some period issues post vaccine. It seems to be getting way more media attention than the many women who have experienced period issues after actual Covid.

Is it funny? That’s just the women who have known where to report it.

Same goes for the women who've had Covid. In fact, worse. They often haven't had anywhere to report it. No yellow card for post Covid symptoms. Does changed menstrual cycle count as Long Covid? I guess it's one form of it?

I'm thinking more and more that I must be a robot 🤖. I didn't experience any period changes after my vaccines.

@Scrambledcustard

100% agree with you but unfortunately anyone on here that says they choose not to have the covid vaccine but have had other vaccinations are now labelled as anti-vaxxers.. 🤨

Also yes, what a strange world we now live in all expected to follow robotically and think the same.

[quote Backofbeyond50]**@lightand* What Bill Ga tes said on a 2010 or 2012 millions of internet shares- video, is certainly one source.
He was doing a presentation and said about reducing the population by about 4 billion, something like that.
[Please look it up yourself, I am fed up of spoon feeding people today, sorry. My patience has evaporated*
I may be wrong but my understanding was that related to providing vaccines to poorer countries so they will have confidence in their child making it past infancy so will have less dc as a result.[/quote]
You should tell the people of India that. They are not a big fan of him.

[https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/why-are-indians-so-angry-at-bill-gates/]

I didn’t notice any changes to my periods after having Covid

[quote Mamascoven]@Scrambledcustard

100% agree with you but unfortunately anyone on here that says they choose not to have the covid vaccine but have had other vaccinations are now labelled as anti-vaxxers.. 🤨

Also yes, what a strange world we now live in all expected to follow robotically and think the same.[/quote]
I just think people get disturbed when you don't follow their path. Its an anxiety/control thing

I'm not saying btw that any of the menstrual changes should be ignored. I'd just like for the many women who are experiencing menstrual issues post Covid to be recognised.

just think people get disturbed when you don't follow their path. Its an anxiety/control thing

Is that why the anti (Covid) vaxxers were harassing queues of people outside vaccination centres at the weekend (London stadium), and vandalising London underground trains (Piers Corbyn was one).
Anxiety/control?

@Tealightsandd

just think people get disturbed when you don't follow their path. Its an anxiety/control thing

Is that why the anti (Covid) vaxxers were harassing queues of people outside vaccination centres at the weekend (London stadium), and vandalising London underground trains (Piers Corbyn was one).
Anxiety/control?

I've not seen anything about that. I wasn't there. But in the U.K you generally get people protesting about things they appose.

Like mobs harassing women speakers at universities and giving them death threats. You always get the idiots.

You and me have very different thought processes tealight, we are allowed to, otherwise we would have a 'one hive mentality'

We're in agreement there scrambled
I'd hate for us all to become clones. How boring that would be!

@BertieBotts

Agree the channel 4 documentary is really good.

There is a lot of bollocks talked about "why" people believe antivax conspiracies but it all really boils down to trust. If you trust the government, health system etc then you'll lean towards going with what they suggest even if you don't 100% agree with every single statement or action, because you believe that they are generally competent and have your best interests at heart.

If you've been repeatedly let down by the government/other forms of authority/the health service etc then this idea that the government has your best interests at heart might be laughable. The idea that they are competent generally less secure. IME, this tends to be those belonging to certain groups, with an higher likelihood of mistrust the more of these groups somebody belongs to. Education actually has very little effect, it's much more about life experience and to an extent how much you feel that the government are "people like me".

These kinds of groups:

People of low socio-economic status
Ethnic minorities
People who live any kind of "alternative" lifestyle
People who have experienced discrimination from authority figures
People with trauma
People with mental health issues

The really predatory antivaxxers prey on this scepticism/gap in trust in order to make money. They use tactics similar to the ones that abusers use when grooming victims. They make marginalised people feel listened to and heard. They use personal anecdotes (feels more human) rather than data (which marginalised people are often on the "wrong side" of so tend to find hard to trust or feel sceptical about) in order to twist the narrative in their own direction and they encourage secrecy because those people who you don't trust won't listen to you. Which unfortunately is kind of true, so it works well for them.

The less predatory but still unfortunately harmful antivaxxers are simply trying to support one another because they understand what it's like to feel marginalised. They feel accepted/heard by these different narratives and it feels genuine, is more accessible, or makes more sense to them than the narrative they hear from the "mainstream media", so they pass it on out of a genuine belief that this is the "real" truth and that people are being duped or listening to the wrong experts. It's not evil, it's actually caring/well-meaning, just unfortunately based on a faulty premise.

The problem (to me) is that there are geniune reasons for a feeling of mistrust and scepticism among groups like these. It's a huge issue and goes far beyond vaccinations. We are as a society (and many societies are) failing huge groups of people, and it seems we only really care when it comes up as an issue like oh no - some people don't want to get vaccinated now. Oh no, people don't trust the police and take revenge into their own hands. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if we had been listening to them in the first place, if our governments contained more diversity, if it was an open conversation rather than assuming that people like this are "just a minority" or even an "underclass" and don't matter. All people matter.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

The anti-vax movement has been around a very long time. When Edward Jenner first devised inoculation with cowpox to prevent smallpox, some people thought it would make them grow cow's hooves!

In Victorian times, smallpox vaccination was made compulsory, and it was a pretty horrific disease, and yet there was still a strong anti-vax movement.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-50713991

@Tealightsandd

We're in agreement there scrambled I'd hate for us all to become clones. How boring that would be!

I have friend who is a very successful business owner. He is real Flat Earther. Some of the stuff he comes out with is bonkers but it makes an interesting night on the

You should tell the people of India that. They are not a big fan of him.

[https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/why-are-indians-so-angry-at-bill-gates/]

@Scrambledcustard
But this just responding to questions about a conspiracy theory (@lightand saying Bill Gates saying billions of people must die), of which no evidence has been produced, with more conspiracies theories?

I had a look at your link and the claims are pretty wild.... And also pretty mixed up? He apparently injected children with the HPV vaccine and also sterilised them?

"Gates is being accused of funding a programme in 2009 of testing and sterilizing indigenous vaccines on tribal children via his NGO Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (BMGF)."

"It is being claimed that the BMGF conducted an unlawful clinical trial of a vaccine on tribal children, without the consent of their parents."

"As per a GreatGameIndia report, a Seattle-based NGO, Program for Appropriate Technology in Health (PATH), with funding by BMGF, conducted trials in Telangana’s Khammam wherein they administered the Human Papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine to 14,000 tribal girls of 10-14 years of age."