Anti-Vax - what is the source?

[pennyspenny]

Two of my good friends have become anti- Vax

We don't discuss it (barely seen each other) but they post a lot on social media about pharmaceutical companies being evil etc

They also attend freedom marches together and post photos of them hugging strangers

I also think they're distancing themselves from the rest of the group. Making plans together and declining invitations to meet with feeble excuse. Maybe I'm just paranoid

But I find myself wondering, where are they getting this info from?

We're all 40s with busy jobs and families. Sensible, educated and (relatively) clean living people. What's gotten into them?

Where do these theories start?

I'm anti covid 'vax' (it's not even a vaccine and its still in experimental stages - killed every animal it was 'tested' on but they've released it anyway)..
@CornforthWhiteH do you have a source?

I don't think it actually matters very much whether an individual gets vaccinated, what is interesting to look at is what your automatic reaction is to a vaccine (or whatever it is ) being suggested.

If everyone was really looking critically at it and weighing it up for themselves then fantastic, why not (even if it means a lower level being vaccinated overall)

It's the fact most people will immediately jump to "Well of course I'll get a vaccine if it's recommended! Why wouldn't anyone?" or "I'm not having anything. Why are they recommending it? I don't want it, it's probably dangerous" - that split is the problem.

Well, the batsignal has gone out to MN's most notorious, OP. I'm sure he can point you in the right direction to the numerous agendas he is on MN to publicise.

@Geamhradh

Well, the batsignal has gone out to MN's most notorious, OP. I'm sure he can point you in the right direction to the numerous agendas he is on MN to publicise.

is this directed at me @Geamhradh?

I've had the vaccine but I know people who haven't. Many just want to wait until it's fully approved, others won't ever have it. Patronising people about their reasons won't change anyone's mind, in the same way calling people 'sheeple' if they choose too won't persuade anyone they were wrong to have it.

Let the vaccine success and safety record speak for itself, stop trying to bully and divide people with vaccine passports and listen instead of judging. People may or may not change their minds. Luckily the vaccine is so effective it really doesn't matter.

@ollyollyoxenfree nope.

@pennyspenny

I think it’s this.

Individualism v’s altruism.

Some people are highly individualistic and see Covid in terms of their personal risk and personal freedom.

Some people are highly altruistic and have gone out of their way to help the country in times of crisis.

As a society, we elected a right wing Tory government - their policies are based on individualism. They were in powers when Covid struck.

The societies and governments worldwide that have had the greatest success with Covid are the altruistic governments that put the needs of society first, and implemented controls quickly.

The problem with our government is they delayed, in attempt to save the economy and this was a mistake.

Since then we’ve had confusion - a government hopping between individualism/altruism and nobody being quite sure what’s going on.

So instead of following becoming more altruistic (involving lockdowns etc/protecting society) - many people have become even more individualistic (very right wing, conspiracy led, my freedom/personal risk is far more important than the needs of society) as exemplified by @CornforthWhiteH post.

Altruism is the key to successfully controlling Covid - and countries like UK/US/India/Brazil/Mexico have not fared well due to the right wing/populist leaders in power.

Compare this to the success of altruistic governments who implemented lockdowns early and are relatively free from measures now.

@Hornbill123456789 I'd argue that lockdowns, where people not at particular risk from Covid have sat at home while people on minimum wage with rubbish T&Cs deliver stuff to their doors, has made people more selfish not less. I had the vaccine because I judged my risk from Covid was higher than that from the vaccine. Others judge differently. Some people genuinely feel the vaccine is a massive threat. Give it time for the evidence on the vaccine to become clearer and people may change their minds, but having a vaccine doesn't elevate you and allow you to judge others as selfish.

@whistleflower

Most of them either had something to sell or had a vested financial interest in some of the 'cures', like Ivermectin.

Didn't Merck come out and post a statement that refuted all claims about Ivermectin?

[[https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic]]/

You'd think if they had a vested financial interest they'd be doing exactly the opposite?

Although it is interesting that they've just been given gov funding to research a new treatment, and since this will be a new treatment, it will be patent protected for years and thus whatever they develop will not be cheap and widely available for manufacture like... Ivermectin.

Merck DID put out a statement about Ivermectin, as they are a responsible drug manufacturer who know it's unethical (and probably illegal) to make unsubstantiated claims.

The people making the claims about Ivermectin had vested financial interests in pushing up stock prices for their own gain.

@Hornbill123456789 so where does that put people who ‘altruistically’ have gone along with repeated lock downs, mask wearing , testing and isolation for ‘the greater good’ but decided not to have the vaccine? :) I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re trying to make out.

A lot of people in my circle are refusing the covid vaccine as they want to see more data before committing to it. These friends including myself are healthy individuals and aren't conspiracy theorists at all. We want more time to understand and see if it has negative effects. My 2yo, my DH and myself have had all our vaccines so no, we aren't anti vax. We are just over cautious and don't want to commit. We are starting to hear more negative side effects from the vaccine on healthy people than covid itself. This doesn't necessarily mean we are blindly hugging people and not following guidelines. We have followed every guideline weighing the risks and taking precautions.

@ReasoningWithUnreasonable

Well said. I'm exactly the same.

But those who could not wait to be jabbed call us anti-vax, conspiracy nut jobs. It's really not on. They are making it Us and Them, which as history shows will never end well.

The thing is those who ran to get jabbed straight away in January were hoping for holidays (nearly everyone I've spoke to had it for this reason ONLY) so hang on, who are the selfish ones really?

And guess what, no one has gone on holiday yet (or gone and not had to quarantine), yet this carrot is now being dangled....it's bribery by the government as they know people will be wary and they know there is good reason for this!

The thing is those who ran to get jabbed straight away in January were hoping for holidays (nearly everyone I've spoke to had it for this reason ONLY) so hang on, who are the selfish ones really?

I genuinely don't know anyone who got vaccinated so they could go on holiday. My friends are mainly in late 20s and 30s, we were all very aware that holidays were likely to be problematic (and fraught with extra expenses that we don't want to pay/can't afford)

@ollyollyoxenfree

I said people I know, not who you know.

[quote prodilp1]@ollyollyoxenfree

I said people I know, not who you know. [/quote]
"The thing is those who ran to get jabbed straight away in January were hoping for holidays"

just offering a take from a clearly a different demographic

@prodilp1 I totally agree with you. People can't go on holiday not because of me refusing the vaccine right now (although I've only been invited just recently) they can't go on holiday because of our incompetent government who have left the borders open for weeks allowing the Indian variant ruining all of our sacrifices we have ALL done for months. Don't point the gun at us! I've mentioned today on another thread where UEFA officials, politicians, royals can be excused from the quarantine rules and travel but those who have had the vaccine can't without jumping through hoops. 60,000 can gather in Wembley for football, hundreds can go to Wimbledon and Royal ascots but school children can't even experience sports day or any field trip or simply visit family abroad where people haven't seen their families for nearly 2 years or over.

People thought the vaccine would bring freedom and also protect you falling seriously ill but our government hasn't given you the freedom nor have they protected you from the virus as they allowed the Indian variant into our country rummaging right now as we speak.

Also, I'm planning to have a second baby and reading reports and listening to women talk about their mensural being messed up doesn't exactly give me faith in the vaccine where I want to roll my sleeves to get jabbed. Questioning a new vaccine and the governments contradicting efforts doesn't make me or anyone who question this a conspiracy theorist. I will wait and have the jab at the end after I see all the data and weigh in all the pros and cons because once I get it done, you can't take back what you've already jabbed.

@ollyollyoxenfree as I thought. I was intrigued to see why the OP came up with.

People making up their own facts really annoys me.
If your not taking the vaccine then fine. Your choice. Stop making stuff up to try and stop other people getting it

@ollyollyoxenfree

Clearly different?

@SandyCane

I have not had the covid vaccine but I am not anti vax at all, I have just chosen not to have this particular vaccine in the same way I chose not to have the flu vaccine every year, despite it being offered (encouraged) in my workplace. No one has ever called me anti vax for that.

I hate the way anyone who hasn't had the vaccine for whatever reason are automatically judged as if they are just a stupid conspiracy theorist.

Do people really think that there are ordinary normally sensible people, holding down jobs, who believe that they will be microchipped, or become magnetic or that Bill Gates is tracking them. Honesty coming out with that rubbish just makes you sound ridiculous!

Fed up on the same rubbish being spouted. People are allowed to have medical and body autonomy, without someone trying to ridicule them and say things like 'oh don't worry, my mobile signal hasn't improved since I've been double jabbed'. That just makes you sound ridiculous, not like some comedic genius who will make someone rush to the vaccine clinic 🙄

Well said.

*These kinds of groups:

People of low socio-economic status
Ethnic minorities
People who live any kind of "alternative" lifestyle
People who have experienced discrimination from authority figures
People with trauma
People with mental health issues*

I fit into at least 3 of these groups and have zero trust in the government. So I guess that's why I'm not going to be vaccinated.

@Dustyboots

*These kinds of groups:

People of low socio-economic status
Ethnic minorities
People who live any kind of "alternative" lifestyle
People who have experienced discrimination from authority figures
People with trauma
People with mental health issues*

I fit into at least 3 of these groups and have zero trust in the government. So I guess that's why I'm not going to be vaccinated.

God 'These kinds of groups' I cannot believe the amount of snobbery and discrimination in some of these posts!!

Guess what I don't fit into any of those but I'm not getting it will you create another group for me, as clearly no one has any autonomy.

Attempts to categorise people this way is discriminatory and offensive.

@ReasoningWithUnreasonable

A lot of people in my circle are refusing the covid vaccine as they want to see more data before committing to it. These friends including myself are healthy individuals and aren't conspiracy theorists at all. We want more time to understand and see if it has negative effects. My 2yo, my DH and myself have had all our vaccines so no, we aren't anti vax. We are just over cautious and don't want to commit. We are starting to hear more negative side effects from the vaccine on healthy people than covid itself. This doesn't necessarily mean we are blindly hugging people and not following guidelines. We have followed every guideline weighing the risks and taking precautions.

@ReasoningWithUnreasonable your 2yo?? How? Why?

@BeansMeansBeans I assumed @ReasoningWithUnreasonable meant the scheduled vaccines, not Covid.