Vaccine passports and mask exemptions

[salmonskinjerky]

The language around the vaccine passport debate has been really shocking - dehumanising, completely unnuanced and very dangerous indeed. It seems like the majority of posters on MN would support vaccine passports for everyday activities and the posters who admit to not being keen on getting the vaccine are called selfish, a danger to others and told that they ought to live as hermits.

I remember when there were a lot of threads about mask exemptions and the overall consensus was that people who felt unable to wear masks for various reasons should be allowed to go about their business without challenge, despite the fact that they posed an additional risk to the health of the people around them. This is in spite of the fact that an unmasked person posed more of a risk to others in the time before anyone had the protection of a vaccine than an unvaccinated person would pose to a person who had been vaccinated. The view that many held was that a mask exempt person should not be questioned about their reasons for not wearing a mask. And that it would be discriminatory to not allow them into indoor public spaces.

I would like to hear from people who make a distinction between people who are mask exempt and people who are unvaccinated for various reasons and why the two should be treated differently.

Good point OP, I find it equally astonishing how the same people are talking about how disgusting it is the government are taking control of all our lives with draconian legislation yet anyone who wishes to take control of their own body by not injecting themselves with a vaccine is bombarded with abuse and donut emojis. I think a mask is far less invasive than experiencing some of the horrendous side effects Ive read on here where people are saying " Ive felt ill for several days in bed, missed my period, painful arm aching all over " but I would do it all over again stuff

I have kind of seen the opposite.. but in a similar vein.

What I have seen on MN and social media is people telling mask exempt that they should stay at home and shop online (ignoring the fact they might need to go to work, appointments etc)... that the unmasked are dirty sacks of Covid germs. One post on a thread here had someone say that all the Covid deaths in the UK were from people not wearing masks. Ridiculous and bullshit.

And then you have people rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of vaccine passports.. but if your GP has advised you not to have it (for whatever reason.. allergy is one) you are allowed to waft about freely amongst the vaccinated... but if you choose not to have it, for reasons such as you feel there is not enough research, worried about pregnancy or side effects, or heaven forbid you have any sort of anxiety about it.. you are told to get a grip and "have the fucking jab". The latter groups also get lumped in with anti-vaxxers, and they are the only unvaccinated people that would spread Covid. If your GP says not to have the jab, Covid wont touch you.

What really needs to be nipped in the bud is the insistence that both unmasked people and unvaccinated people are filthy biohazards.

The thing is, vaccines are 100% so even if you have had it, there's a small change of catching it. To minimise this chance I won't be socialising with non vaccinated people, easy as I don't have any anti vaxxers in my family or friends. If I go to the pub, a meal, a gig I don't think it is unreasonable for all those medically able to to have had the vaccine before going to indoor public places.

@moochingtothepub

The thing is, vaccines are 100% so even if you have had it, there's a small change of catching it. To minimise this chance I won't be socialising with non vaccinated people, easy as I don't have any anti vaxxers in my family or friends. If I go to the pub, a meal, a gig I don't think it is unreasonable for all those medically able to to have had the vaccine before going to indoor public places.

How do you know if your friends/family have had the vaccine? Will you be asking for proof?

Op
Im anti mask exempts for some people.
As many can wear but choose not to. Eg kids. More asthmatics can wear them. So i would only exclude people who were say phobic.

So my views on masks and vax are similar to each other.
Im pro vax. And ideally people would have a choice and would be sensible. But being on fb has shown me how honestly thick some people are. And they seem to be ones who think they know better than the covid rules. (Some of which dont make sebse true but it's not those people ignore).
So ultimately i do favour a vax passport because the idiots think

• they are at 0 risk
• think they are ok because theyve had it once
• think lft mean you can go to school /work with symptoms
• think they are more at risk from some random unknown side effect
• don't understand about the nhs being overwhelmed could mean they could die - in a car accident/ labour etc etc or of covid even if its only o2 they needed.
• don't understand this could move quickly tgrough the unvaxxed if we dont have vax herd immunity
• don't understand covid can have long term effects even on young people. We wouldnt know yet the effect on fertility
• even for kids with the link for covid to t1 diabetes might be enough reason to have the vax

Obviously some do have good reasons not to vax. But how many will lose their principles just for a holiday abroad or to go to a club/football match.
Also it is not all for the elderly as some people including children wont be able to have the vax. You could say stay home. But they likely need healthcare and may have kids at school etc.

Also this is all very expensive
Kids will probably be asking why people wouldnt be vaxxed as it could prevent even more huge debt.
With great power comes great responsibility...
Maybe some adverts showing people affected by polio or tetanus or mumps. (Dp is infertile and obviously our generation have wild mumps).
At any point you could be diagnosed with cancer and have all those appts in hospital and i think then you are better off if youve already had a virus/jab?

Asian countries dont seem to have all these mask exemptions.
I do understand not vaxxing for someone else, but say herd immunity could be the difference between a few dying every year who cant be vaxxed including say babies

Everyone who can have it should have it as we have a collective responsibility to protect those who can’t have it eg. some vulnerable children or those who may not get as much benefit from it including some cancer patients.

The less people who have it, the more chance of new variants, meaning we could be back at square one.

Of course people who can’t have the vaccine shouldn’t be lumped in with those who choose not to for their own selfish reasons or the fact that they think they know more than the top scientists who are 100% advising it is safe.

We spend too long in this country pandering to people who are selfish and have no social responsibility and I totally agree with vaccine passports in the future as long as the few who genuinely exempt are not inconvenienced...

@HSHorror

You say that you would only allow mask exemptions for people who are phobic. Would you extend the same 'exemption' to people who are phobic of medical interventions due to bad experiences in the past?

Also, who decides what a 'good reason' for not being vaccinated is?
Many women who are TTC will be freaked out to hear of all of the people who have had totally abnormal cycles after the vaccine and wish to hang about for more data coming through about why this is happening. Should they be banned from leading a normal life?

[quote salmonskinjerky]@HSHorror

You say that you would only allow mask exemptions for people who are phobic. Would you extend the same 'exemption' to people who are phobic of medical interventions due to bad experiences in the past?

Also, who decides what a 'good reason' for not being vaccinated is?
Many women who are TTC will be freaked out to hear of all of the people who have had totally abnormal cycles after the vaccine and wish to hang about for more data coming through about why this is happening. Should they be banned from leading a normal life?[/quote]
*first paragraph refers to vaccine passports, sorry

Op loads of reports of period issues after covid too though.

And in fact they think covid has put some people into premature menopause. (And has given periods to some who were past menopause.
Working on the basis those ttc as young and not shielding have very high chance of catching covid. Especially if they have kids at school.
Plus obviously the risks being CV from 28w.
Also fever in pregnancy isnt great (though probably likely nornally anyway).
Known risk to mum and baby vs possibly??? Infertility.

I dont know re the exemptions for people with previous issues.
Obviously yes for anyone allergic who is likely to have a reaction.
With those worried though i wouldnt exempt. (My dc is very needle averse and health care after an incident at 5yo. But unfortunately that just means i will be holding them down for the vax.

But i do think there is discussion around childrens vax. Not really the safery but
Effectiveness of say AZ not being as high. So what if giving another vax later doesnt boost it. As they found half dose better possibly.
And likelihood of vaxs yearly. Of maybe different types.
Whilst a vax side effect of say 1/300k would be low if you have it ecery year more chance of an issue eventually unless it is maybe underlying issues causing it in which case if you dont react the first time it might be ok??

At the moment few kids have died but less than 50% will have had covid. And likewise the unvaxxed would catch it every 6m maybe. With msybe days off each time...

With those worried though i wouldnt exempt. (My dc is very needle averse and health care after an incident at 5yo. But unfortunately that just means i will be holding them down for the vax

Doing that is going to create issues in the future. Is why, at 41 years old, I am scared of needles. Also, at 34, I was held down by several adults and injected against my will "for my own safety" in a mental health hospital. I can't shrug that off... is why I wont be having the vaccine in it's needle form.

I'm mask exempt for a range of reasons I'm not prepared to go into on here - it's noted on my medical records and it's not for a want of trying - I have spent probably well over £100 on trying different styles and visors and whatever else, and I've made myself very very ill trying to acclimatise. I've been abused on here, told I'm killing grannies, made to feel utterly dehumanised. I've been abused on the rare occasions I've gone into a physical premises where masking is required - despite me desperately trying to stay away from anyone when in there. I've been shunned at the school gate when the school tried to enforce masks on the public footpath outside the school. The people I've had actual sympathy from have been the retail staff seeing me desperately trying to fight the waves of terror from having it on my face and telling me to take the bloody thing off and stop trying to put myself through it and brute force it through.

Incidentally I've had the vaccine first dose and I'm due the second in a week or so's time. I'm pro-vaccine generally but I am INCREDIBLY more pro-bodily autonomy and the importance of people with capacity having the freedom to make their own decisions about their body - even if they're not the decisions I personally feel are "right". I'm incredibly concerned about the route we are going down in terms of coercion and the dismantling of the principle of informed consent. It's the toxicity of the dialogue that's begun to emerge and the bullying and threats of the state essentially forcing people into having the jab in order to be allowed to be a functional member of society that is deterring me to the point I'm considering cancelling the second jab appointment in protest at what is going on.

Might seem just a little bit of paper and an app on your phone now - but once the state has crossed the line once to dictate what they can do to your body, that makes it a hell of a lot easier to cross that line again and again - I'm incredibly concerned about where that has the potential to lead.

@CoffeeWithCheese

I'm mask exempt for a range of reasons I'm not prepared to go into on here - it's noted on my medical records and it's not for a want of trying - I have spent probably well over £100 on trying different styles and visors and whatever else, and I've made myself very very ill trying to acclimatise. I've been abused on here, told I'm killing grannies, made to feel utterly dehumanised. I've been abused on the rare occasions I've gone into a physical premises where masking is required - despite me desperately trying to stay away from anyone when in there. I've been shunned at the school gate when the school tried to enforce masks on the public footpath outside the school. The people I've had actual sympathy from have been the retail staff seeing me desperately trying to fight the waves of terror from having it on my face and telling me to take the bloody thing off and stop trying to put myself through it and brute force it through.

Incidentally I've had the vaccine first dose and I'm due the second in a week or so's time. I'm pro-vaccine generally but I am INCREDIBLY more pro-bodily autonomy and the importance of people with capacity having the freedom to make their own decisions about their body - even if they're not the decisions I personally feel are "right". I'm incredibly concerned about the route we are going down in terms of coercion and the dismantling of the principle of informed consent. It's the toxicity of the dialogue that's begun to emerge and the bullying and threats of the state essentially forcing people into having the jab in order to be allowed to be a functional member of society that is deterring me to the point I'm considering cancelling the second jab appointment in protest at what is going on.

Might seem just a little bit of paper and an app on your phone now - but once the state has crossed the line once to dictate what they can do to your body, that makes it a hell of a lot easier to cross that line again and again - I'm incredibly concerned about where that has the potential to lead.

Agreed, a well balanced post

@CoffeeWithCheese

I'm mask exempt for a range of reasons I'm not prepared to go into on here - it's noted on my medical records and it's not for a want of trying - I have spent probably well over £100 on trying different styles and visors and whatever else, and I've made myself very very ill trying to acclimatise. I've been abused on here, told I'm killing grannies, made to feel utterly dehumanised. I've been abused on the rare occasions I've gone into a physical premises where masking is required - despite me desperately trying to stay away from anyone when in there. I've been shunned at the school gate when the school tried to enforce masks on the public footpath outside the school. The people I've had actual sympathy from have been the retail staff seeing me desperately trying to fight the waves of terror from having it on my face and telling me to take the bloody thing off and stop trying to put myself through it and brute force it through.

Incidentally I've had the vaccine first dose and I'm due the second in a week or so's time. I'm pro-vaccine generally but I am INCREDIBLY more pro-bodily autonomy and the importance of people with capacity having the freedom to make their own decisions about their body - even if they're not the decisions I personally feel are "right". I'm incredibly concerned about the route we are going down in terms of coercion and the dismantling of the principle of informed consent. It's the toxicity of the dialogue that's begun to emerge and the bullying and threats of the state essentially forcing people into having the jab in order to be allowed to be a functional member of society that is deterring me to the point I'm considering cancelling the second jab appointment in protest at what is going on.

Might seem just a little bit of paper and an app on your phone now - but once the state has crossed the line once to dictate what they can do to your body, that makes it a hell of a lot easier to cross that line again and again - I'm incredibly concerned about where that has the potential to lead.

Would you let a convicted (but time-served) paedophile teach? Would you let an alcoholic drive a bus? Would you let a convicted fraudster run a bank?

People have a reasonable expectation in a civilised country that they can live in the knowledge the state is working to protect them from obvious dangers.

So personally I don't give a rats arse about the "bodily rights" of those refusing vaccines. The right to life of those for whom a vaccine is ineffective trumps them out of sight.

If anyone is going to be forced out of society, it should be the stupid twits who've watched too many David Icke videos, NOT those whose only fault is to have a weakened immune system.

no social responsibility

Remind me which party keeps being voted in again?

notrub

Could you cite your legal authority for the right to life ‘trumping’ all other rights?

There are already certain vaccines you need to doncertain things.... hep b to work with sewage for example or yellow fever to travel to certain areas.... the premise of compulsory vaccines to do certain things Is not new. Also it won't be vaccine passports forever, just until the pandemic has been declared as over.... if you don't want the vaccine then that's your business, however you are just going to have to wait a bit longer to do the things everyone else can.

@Chatterbox1987

There are already certain vaccines you need to doncertain things.... hep b to work with sewage for example or yellow fever to travel to certain areas.... the premise of compulsory vaccines to do certain things Is not new. Also it won't be vaccine passports forever, just until the pandemic has been declared as over.... if you don't want the vaccine then that's your business, however you are just going to have to wait a bit longer to do the things everyone else can.

People choose a career in sewage or care, and choose to travel to areas that require the yellow fever vaccine...in all cases knowing they need those specific vaccines. What they don't anticipate is having to have a medical procedure to do something that they have already been doing for years.

@XenoBitch yes but that would also have been the case with those things before... there would have been a time that vaccines were not required to do those things. Yet at some point the rules have changed and vaccines are now required for it as it has become apparent that it is safer if you have had the vaccine

[quote Chatterbox1987]@XenoBitch yes but that would also have been the case with those things before... there would have been a time that vaccines were not required to do those things. Yet at some point the rules have changed and vaccines are now required for it as it has become apparent that it is safer if you have had the vaccine[/quote]
Needing a vaccine to go to the pub though.... that is madness. When will it stop? It wont.

Butbits not gonna be forever... if its a case of vaccinated people can go to the pub or nobody can until this is over than I'm all for it.

Same as I'd be happy for the elderly to go on holiday now.

If having the vaccine is such a big deal for you then not going to the pub for another 6-12 months shouldn't get in the way of your view.

How often do you really go to the pub a year? Is that going to affect your life the much to wait until the pandemic is over if you don't want the vaccine?

Also the passport for the pubs is purely an issue of social distancing... they can alow many more in and make more money if they require a vaccine passport to get it...

It doesn't mean every pub will stick to that but will just be a more socially distanced affair in those pubs.

Notrub - The Nuremberg Code specifically deals with enforced medical treatment. Sounds as though you would have fitted right in in Nazi Germany.

@Chatterbox1987

Butbits not gonna be forever... if its a case of vaccinated people can go to the pub or nobody can until this is over than I'm all for it.

Same as I'd be happy for the elderly to go on holiday now.

If having the vaccine is such a big deal for you then not going to the pub for another 6-12 months shouldn't get in the way of your view.

How often do you really go to the pub a year? Is that going to affect your life the much to wait until the pandemic is over if you don't want the vaccine?

It wont be just the pub though will it? It will be cinemas, cafes, sporting events, comic cons, non-essential shops etc. That is what a lot of people are begging for.. to stop the dirty unvaccinated people spreading germs. If you don't have the vaccine? Great, but you will be punished by living a non-life. I would not be surprised to see the masses wanting benefit sanctions for unvaccinated people next.

Would you let a convicted (but time-served) paedophile teach?
Would you let an alcoholic drive a bus?
Would you let a convicted fraudster run a bank?

But they are all criminals or would-be criminals in the case of the alcoholic bus driver. Not law abiding citizens.

People have a reasonable expectation in a civilised country that they can live in the knowledge the state is working to protect them from obvious dangers.

This just isn't true though. People have different things that will be dangerous to them. And varying levels of danger at that. And in all cases, the protections are weighed against a variety of factors... mainly other people's right to do things, as in the below example:

So personally I don't give a rats arse about the people who would rather drive to work. The right to life of the 1 in 19 people who die from air pollution trumps them out of sight.

You can reframe that statement of yours in many different ways, and I wonder since you agree with yours do you also agree with mine?

If anyone is going to be forced out of society, it should be the stupid twits who've watched too many David Icke videos, NOT those whose only fault is to have a weakened immune system.

Remember when someone suggested forcing men out of society by giving them a curfew and it was laughed out of town? I disagreed with that suggestion in the same way I disagree with yours. You cannot create two-tier societies. I'm trying to think of a reason that would ever justify one and I just can't. Maybe, maybe, there is an argument that a two-tier society might have been justifiable during the last year, but this isn't the thread to get into that, and it's not the same because the people who would have lived in this "second tier" would have been doing so to primarily protect their own health. But I feel public opinion on that has remained against the "shield the vulnerable and let the rest get on with it approach".

On a positive note there is progress being made on the vaccine alternatives for people with compromised immune systems, which would hopefully remove any debate around two-tier societies and passports to the pub.