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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Sithee · 04/03/2021 02:04

Where I live there is no mixing of households at all. Can’t even meet anyone outside of your immediate household for a walk or at the park. Been like that since early November, so not the only country at all.

wellthatsunusual · 04/03/2021 02:07

I agree with you. I'm not suggesting that there was no need for any restrictions at all, but I think that no mixing of households at all has been particularly Draconian. And I suspect you are right that there is a belief that other countries are stricter than here. To be honest, that's what I assumed until I read your post.

blueberrymuffin88 · 04/03/2021 02:17

Totally agree!! And well written.

Taikoo · 04/03/2021 02:50

No, it's not.
There"s no household mixing in the Republic of Ireland either.

TheBitchOfTheVicar · 04/03/2021 03:04

I’d say the right to life is the most fundamental right.

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 03:09

Yes I did mention Ireland in my post. They are the only other one that I know of. As I understand it the Irish household rules are more or less identical to ours, even with the same support bubbles etc, so I'm guessing their rules have been influenced by ours to some extent. Have the cross border links with the North played a role in that do you think?

OP posts:
ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 03:20

@TheBitchOfTheVicar

I’d say the right to life is the most fundamental right.
I wouldn't disagree with that at all, but that still doesn't mean that all other rights become completely irrelevant in the face of it. Or at least that isn't the approach that we take to any other risky activity in life. It's about finding the right balance.
OP posts:
ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 03:23

@Sithee

Where I live there is no mixing of households at all. Can’t even meet anyone outside of your immediate household for a walk or at the park. Been like that since early November, so not the only country at all.
Where do you live Sithee? Genuinely interested to learn. I may have overlooked somewhere!
OP posts:
TheVeryThing · 04/03/2021 03:24

What makes you think the rules in Ireland have been influenced by the UK? That’s a bit arrogant of you.
There has been lots of talk about trying to adopt an all-island approach but the DUP are not keen. The rules are similar at the moment as we are both in lockdown but that has not been the case a lot of the time.
Our lockdown rules are predominantly as a result of a very powerful & extremely cautious CMO.

wellthatsunusual · 04/03/2021 03:29

@ByTheHarbour

Yes I did mention Ireland in my post. They are the only other one that I know of. As I understand it the Irish household rules are more or less identical to ours, even with the same support bubbles etc, so I'm guessing their rules have been influenced by ours to some extent. Have the cross border links with the North played a role in that do you think?
I'm pretty sure Ireland introduced their rules first, so I don't see how they could have been influenced by the UK.

I'm in N Ireland and I remember this time last year there being a lot of discussion as to when we would follow them.

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 03:35

@TheVeryThing

What makes you think the rules in Ireland have been influenced by the UK? That’s a bit arrogant of you. There has been lots of talk about trying to adopt an all-island approach but the DUP are not keen. The rules are similar at the moment as we are both in lockdown but that has not been the case a lot of the time. Our lockdown rules are predominantly as a result of a very powerful & extremely cautious CMO.
It was just the fact that the rules are so similar. Particularly the support bubbles, they have the same name and the details appear to be virtually a carbon copy. UK and Republic of Ireland are the only countries in the world to have legislated this kind of bubble system as far as I know, so for the system to be so totally identical between the two it just seems likely that it may be the result of some coordination. I could be wrong!
OP posts:
wellthatsunusual · 04/03/2021 03:36

Just checked, Ireland introduced the first measures on March 12th last year and the UK on March 26th. Although I think the specific 'no household mixing' in Ireland seems to have come about on March 27th. But either way, they certainly didn't follow the UK.

TheVeryThing · 04/03/2021 03:43

You are wrong. Certainly governments everywhere can be influenced by measures introduced in other countries but the rules in Ireland and the UK have varied significantly over the past year.
Also, the rules in Northern Ireland are set by the Assembly and not by Westminister.

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 03:49

@wellthatsunusual

Just checked, Ireland introduced the first measures on March 12th last year and the UK on March 26th. Although I think the specific 'no household mixing' in Ireland seems to have come about on March 27th. But either way, they certainly didn't follow the UK.
I think we're talking at cross purposes. A number of countries temporarily banned household mixing in their first lockdowns last spring. (Although certainly not all - places like Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark never did)

What I'm talking about though is places which carried on doing so after that, and indeed are still doing so a year later!

On the support bubbles, Republic of Ireland introduced them in October according to RTE. They started in England in June.

OP posts:
110APiccadilly · 04/03/2021 03:52

I think it's very interesting that posters seem to be concentrating on the fact that there's one other country where this is also true, and not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

I share OP's concerns, I think it's terrifying that people just accept the government has the right to ban you from having any visitors. I live in Wales and there's not been a single moment in the last year when I can have whoever I like in my own home - the most I've been allowed is people from my own household bubble last summer.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

110APiccadilly · 04/03/2021 03:54

Just realised that technically we're a few weeks short of a year, so I'll admit I should have said, "a single moment in the last 11 months and a week".

TheVeryThing · 04/03/2021 03:58

Lots of measures are very different though so why would Ireland follow the uk on this one very specific aspect and not on so many others?
Your argument doesn’t make sense. It’s possible that they looked at the bubble thing and thought it might work here but the ban on household mixing had been a feature here since very early on.
I don’t think any government took action without considering what others had done.
I agree that it feels draconian and would have been unthinkable before the pandemic.

Marchitectmummy · 04/03/2021 04:01

Why do you think the government want to control our mixing in homes thrn? What gain does it bring to a government?

Fundermentally, governments particularly Conservative governments normally encourage the opposite to what has happened for the past year don't they - maximise missing, maximise movement of people, maximise spending, borrowing and the circulation of money.

So what are thry gaining?

BugsAndBeesAndBirdsAndButterfl · 04/03/2021 04:08

Vicotria, Australia has in its lockdowns.

Sithee · 04/03/2021 04:34

I’m on the West Coast of Canada. We’re not in lockdown, but Canadians are in general pretty compliant with public health orders. People who live alone can form a small bubble.

It’s difficult to compare the UK to other countries when their COVID prevalence and population densities are so different.

The number of cases here is pretty low, but the vaccine roll out here is slow, so I think these restrictions will be in place for a while.

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 04:56

@BugsAndBeesAndBirdsAndButterfl

Vicotria, Australia has in its lockdowns.
It has temporarily during full lockdowns, as have some other places during their earlier lockdowns. But not outside of that. In parts of this country it will soon be a whole year since any mixing in homes was last legal. And in the whole country it will have been illegal for most of the past year.
OP posts:
ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 05:07

@Sithee

I’m on the West Coast of Canada. We’re not in lockdown, but Canadians are in general pretty compliant with public health orders. People who live alone can form a small bubble.

It’s difficult to compare the UK to other countries when their COVID prevalence and population densities are so different.

The number of cases here is pretty low, but the vaccine roll out here is slow, so I think these restrictions will be in place for a while.

Thanks for replying, and yes I think I will need to conceed on that one! It looks like certain parts of Canada (although not the whole country) currently have British-style restrictions. You have my sympathy!!

I agree that comparisons between countries are a bit difficult, although I would have thought the UK should be at least reasonably comparable to some of the European countries that I mentioned, which have similar (or in some cases greater) population densities, similar demographics, similar economies, similar cultures, and generally similar sized Covid outbreaks throughout the pandemic.

OP posts:
ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 05:25

not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

UK level of deaths is highly unusual too.

People need to just stop with the denial. If you're happy to see deaths rise again, then push for indoor mixing. The too are inextricably linked.

No one is happy with the restrictions.

garlictwist · 04/03/2021 05:27

If you disagree with the rule then break it. The world won't end. It's up to you.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 05:28

generally similar sized Covid outbreaks throughout the pandemic.

This is false. Do you right false statements knowingly or just because you haven't understood what is really happening?

UK is WAY higher on deaths from Autumn 2020. Our Christmas deaths were massively higher than the rest of Europe.