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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Trickyboy · 06/03/2021 15:04

OP - You opening post was a critique of our ban on household mixing compared with other countries . You called up a number of other countries rules through the same pandemic and argued that despite more relaxed rules around households mixing - their outcomes (deaths) have been lower.

My argument is simply that you can't compare. Our population is larger, more dense and more diverse in terms of age and ethnicity than any other in Europe. Therefore there is NEVER going to be a point at which our 'rules' can compare with the rules of other countries. Especially when we let the rate of transmission get such a grip at the beginning by slow and weak 'lockdown advice' most of which wasn't even a legal requirement at the beginning.

But, at the end of the spring wave our infection rate came down to the same very low level over the summer as most other countries, so going into the autumn were effectively starting afresh with the spread.

Yes - once the rate of infection started to fall - mistakes continued to be made. NOTHING was learned. No one in government seemed to have made the basic calculation that if we had 50k deaths from a virus that got a grip in SPRING - then it was going to be much much worse across winter and spring when flu cases already bring the NHS to its knees..

However - regardless of all that . My argument remains the same. We have a very different population demographic from most of Europe ..
and as such our restrictions needed to be much stronger - when they were much weaker in many ways giving the virus an opportunity to spread.

Even things like different climates make a huge difference. If you have a warmer climate across a longer summer that is also going to make a difference .

You are comparing apples and pears.
We are apples . We need to get this down to an acceptable level /along with large proportion of vaccinated population to ensure we do not have to endure another lockdown next winter .

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 20:24

@Trickyboy Well on your point about needing to evaluate and compare the whole package of restrictions in countries rather than just household mixing on its own I think we reached some kind of agreement. Other countries have prioritised differently with a far higher priority given to family life and relationships rather than, for example, pubs and offices, and that is exactly what I'm saying we need to look at.

On the point about demographic differences - we don't actually have the highest density (Netherlands does), I can't see how we can have the greatest age diversity given that average age and life expectancy is very similar in all of these countries, and I don't see what difference it makes that our population is the biggest. But nonetheless, you are of course right that a wide range of demographic, societal and occupational factors make a big difference to the covid risk in any area and the strength of restrictions which may be needed, as can clearly be seen in the persistent differences in infection rates between certain parts of this country.

However, I don't think that adequately explains the differences in restrictions that we see at country level, as differences in risk factors between countries are surely dwarfed by the differences found within countries (for example, there may be differences in these factors between UK as a whole and Netherlands as a whole, but that must surely be much smaller than the difference between say Bradford and Herefordshire)

To choose some extreme extreme examples to illustrate what I'm talking about, you can currently (and for most or all of the last year) have household mixing in Paris, Rotterdam, Hamburg and Copenhagen, but not in the Scottish Highlands, North Devon and the Isles of Scilly. I can't see how the demographic and density factors can even begin to explain that.

OP posts:
samsmum2 · 06/03/2021 21:19

@ByTheHarbour agree with every word you say, particularly this...
I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

Cindie943811A · 06/03/2021 21:54

Well @samsmum2 you try pushing back if you’re dead or disabled. Those who are most vocal about these limits on civil liberties are presumably secure in the fallacious belief that they are safe from a fatal dose of COVID.
A week or so ago a vulnerable man in Sussex had a visitor — just a single visitor from another household. The visitor thought they were healthy but later became symptomatic and has passed the virus onto the vulnerable one who died. Nine of the agency carers who tended him and who were having regular tests, contracted the virus from their patient.
To be fair, there a more important issues re this government’s attempts to chain democracy than the COVID regulations. To what advantage would there be to the Govt to continue the regulations or like regulations? If you live in a civilised society you must accept some sort of limit on personal freedom.

Dee1975 · 06/03/2021 21:58

Restrictions loosened last year, winter months came and people did more mixing inside - cases then shot up. That’s why.

Silverthorny · 07/03/2021 01:48

@Dee1975 agree with you completely. I do think many people are being disingenuous.

Silverthorny · 07/03/2021 02:09

We also had the Kent variant which was more deadly and infectious.

MercyBooth · 07/03/2021 02:44

@QualityRoads Not everyone has a choice.

www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/yhn-pregnant-coronavirus-lockdown-engineer-18108795

Mum-to-be 'threatened and lied to' as she is forced to break lockdown and let engineer into her flat
Leonie Shiamtanis has slammed Your Homes Newcastle for forcing her to allow a gas engineer into her flat while she is self-isolating during the coronavirus pandemic

A mum-to-be claims she was threatened and lied to by “shameful” Newcastle housing bosses, who have been accused of putting council home tenants at risk during the coronavirus crisis.

Leonie Shiamtanis, who is 29 weeks pregnant, is self-isolating to protect herself and her unborn child during the pandemic, but was shocked when Your Homes Newcastle threatened her with legal action if she did not let a gas inspector into her Kenton flat for a routine safety check despite lockdown restrictions.

Then after being assured that the engineer would be wearing protective equipment to avoid spreading Covid-19, they instead arrived in a t-shirt and joggers and without the promised gloves, mask, and disinfectant.

The 29-year-old teacher, who is at even greater risk from coronavirus as she suffers with asthma, has now warned that vulnerable YHN tenants and the organisation’s engineers are being put at risk through “lack of protection and lying”

She said: “Why be put into lockdown and not allowed to see my family that live in a different home, but have to be forced to have a stranger in my home unprotected that has been in 10 different houses through the day? I tried to follow government guidelines but I was threatened and lied to and my family was put at risk.”

Having initially told YHN that she could not let any engineer in because she was self-isolating, Ms Shiamantis was sent a letter warning that they would obtain a warrant and enter her home “by force” and with police in attendance if necessary.

She said the warning was “very distressing” at a time when she is coping with the pressures of the Covid-19 crisis while being pregnant with her first child.

But after she and her boyfriend, Aaron Whitfield, agreed to the gas safety check having been promised that the engineer would be kitted out with PPE, the couple were furious when he arrived with only some hand sanitiser in his van and no other protective gear.

Ms Shiamtanis, of Ambridge Way, immediately rang YHN to complain and claims she was then told that 50 tenants a day were calling with similar concerns and that call centre staff were “saying whatever they need to just to get people off the phone”.

After feeling “backed into a corner, threatened and lied to”, she has now urged YHN to make urgent changes to avoid other vulnerable or elderly people being put at risk – as well as the engineers who are visiting multiple homes across the city every day.
She added: “I feel sorry for the engineers just as much as I feel sorry for us. They are having to go to loads of different places and it is not fair.

“It is really, really hard. My partner has an older daughter, but this is my first child and we can’t share what is supposed to be an amazing time with our family.

“We live on the top floor of a three-storey building, so we can’t go outside or into a garden.

“My mum can’t come and visit us, but we have had to let this person in. It seems unfair.”

YHN has pledged to ensure call centre staff give out “correct information” about PPE and to amend the letters they sent out threatening legal action.

A spokesperson for Your Homes Newcastle said: “We would like to apologise to Ms Shiamtanis for any distress she has experienced and understand that this is a worrying time for her and many of our residents.

The wellbeing and safety of our customers and staff is of our utmost concern and we would like to reassure all our customers that our trade staff are instructed to adhere to all social distancing guidance set out by the Government when undertaking work in people’s homes.

This includes maintaining a two-metre distance from any occupants at all times, washing hands before and after visiting homes and regularly using hand sanitser.

“As per Government guidance, full PPE is not required to carry out work in people’s homes and in light of Ms Shiamtanis’ complaint we have reiterated this message to our contact centre staff to ensure customers are given the correct information should they contact us for advice.

“We have also taken action to review and amend the letter Ms Shiamtanis received threatening legal action. While we remain legally obligated to carry out gas safety checks and pursuing court action is part of this process, we appreciate that the standard letter does not reflect the current situation and the additional worries some residents may be experiencing

Silverthorny · 07/03/2021 08:15

And infection rates in The Netherlands are on the up. So isn’t the proof here that our measures are working, our vaccine drive is working - and if we stick to the plan with caution, we should hopefully all be mixing in June?

Aruva · 07/03/2021 14:21

@pinkflamingo112

yes i work for the NHS,understaffed ,undervalued,underesourced.....so a pandemic was the final straw ,covid is real ......BUT for the love of god,enough is enough !!! im quite miffed on a daily basis that we are supposed to adhere to all these restrictions ,we have the vaccine , we need to live with it ,the fall out from covid will be worse if we stay shut up.RANT OVER!!.......plus internet shopping is really annoying me now with parcels that don't arrive etc!!
well said pinkfamingo112 - the voice of reason from the NHS.. wish there were more like you who say we have to learn to live with COVID. And some people need to much more careful than others. People need to take responsibility for their health rather than keep running to the NHS. Sadly a lot of people abuse the NHS system and run to it for every little problem - the stories I hear from my niece who is an AE doctor- is horrendous. These people don't seem to have half a brain !!
Cassandrainthenight · 08/03/2021 23:35

Just want to say YANBU, OP.

There's no proper balance or sense to the restrictions, my DD is a key worker and sees hundreds of people daily, yet I haven't seen her over a year (I would go and see her if she lived locally but she lives over 100 miles away). I haven't seen my son either even though he's less than 60 miles away because he's in Wales where the restrictions seem to be even more ridiculous, my two youngest kids have been at home for months not allowed to go even see their elder siblings outside for a day. People are being scared because instilling fear is the best method to submit the masses.
British people are far more rule-following judging by what most of my friends from the Continent tell me about their friends and families and still the Brits get the blame for being the only nation which can't follow the rules, it's not true.

Variants in countries like SA not spreading as quickly could be due to loads of other reasons, like population density, climate, the fact that our winter is their summer (virus dies in direct sunlight) etc...

Using 'but people might die' is manipulative. What about people who would die due to depression and isolation and economic ruin and nothing to live for?
People who want to be scared and worry will always find a reason to worry anyway. DH hasn't seen his mother for over a year and the kids haven't seen GPs, and she's had a mini- stroke recently and is in poor health, there is a good chance she might die having not seen her son or grandchildren for over a year, but apparently it'd be okay due to the risk for the society if if we decide to break the rules and drive for two hours to see her. To be honest I'm sure DH would have done it by now but she's one of the people scared into submission by the media so she herself is scared of us visiting her, even though PILs have been vaccinated.

Aruva · 09/03/2021 07:25

I believe the number of deaths are over estimated - there is plenty of anecdotal evidence showing that people entered hospital with other causes and did catch covid. But main cause of death was not covid . But because covid is mentioned on the death certificate- the death is counted as COVID .very disingenuous! The NHS, ONS, ? Terrifying the public was the main aim and this has now been done sadly . 120,000 deaths needs to be discounted by 30pct !

ChameleonClara · 09/03/2021 07:31

@Aruva

I believe the number of deaths are over estimated - there is plenty of anecdotal evidence showing that people entered hospital with other causes and did catch covid. But main cause of death was not covid . But because covid is mentioned on the death certificate- the death is counted as COVID .very disingenuous! The NHS, ONS, ? Terrifying the public was the main aim and this has now been done sadly . 120,000 deaths needs to be discounted by 30pct !
Covid denial is an intoxicating drug.

This whole post is just misinformation.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-rest/202005/covid-19-and-the-pleasures-denial

StepOutOfLine · 09/03/2021 07:37

@pinkstripeycat

We are in a large town on outskirts of Rome. Not mixed with other households for a year approx
That's not the law though, is it?
StepOutOfLine · 09/03/2021 07:39

@Aruva

I believe the number of deaths are over estimated - there is plenty of anecdotal evidence showing that people entered hospital with other causes and did catch covid. But main cause of death was not covid . But because covid is mentioned on the death certificate- the death is counted as COVID .very disingenuous! The NHS, ONS, ? Terrifying the public was the main aim and this has now been done sadly . 120,000 deaths needs to be discounted by 30pct !
Strangely, (or maybe not) actual scientists believe that globally, the number of deaths has been vastly under-estimated. See peer reviewed articles in Nature/Scientist/the Lancet/BMJ etc. Or just, you know, ask some scientists.
anon666 · 09/03/2021 14:38

@snowrabbit

Good grief, you take consolation in the fact that one country in the world has edged ahead of us?

And that this now warrants us to abandon measures designed to prevent more excess deaths, which can be seen on the right of your graph?

I fail to see how being second is significantly better than being top??

Torvean · 09/03/2021 16:46

Been no mixing here since last year. And no talk of it happening.
We have around 30 cases of Covid in a city of 260 000 ppl. Yet nothing will change til at least April 26th.

I feel a bit lied to as initially we were told there would be a release from some restrictions once certain ppl were vaccinated.

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