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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 05:28

Right = write Hmm

DianaT1969 · 04/03/2021 05:36

Your argument would make sense if other countries didn't have a problem with Covid. But they do.
You could equally write a post saying "despite no household mixing allowed, we had over 1,000 deaths per day in January. How many if we had all mixed more?"
When you consider that transfer outside is low to negligible, you have to wonder where all the contact is happening. Spread within hospitals is a big one. Care homes and schools. Certain workplaces. I'm not sure that can explain 20,000 new cases we were seeing a day in the autumn and January.
I want this over. Back to near normal. I think cases and deaths would be higher if we were mixing in households more. Delaying our return to normal.

Anne1958 · 04/03/2021 06:18

No mixing of households where I live also.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 06:18

I completely agree with and understand your points and yet it's still 6 weeks until we can really meet up with people apart from for exercise. And end of May until we can meet two households.
It's so strange for big families and groups of friends. I feel almost estranged at times. I do meet up with my local friends in the playground and so on when the children play but it isn't the same really.
I know I could break the rules but it's not the point. I feel so envious of my friends in Germany who can have a friend over for dinner and have a hair cut. I'm also so envious of most European countries where there is some level of hospitality open.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 06:19

I think the government are getting away with it as part of their blame the public strategy.

NoMackerelInSwindon · 04/03/2021 06:21

And I would like to add that our vaccine programme compared to Europe shows we are getting way ahead of ourselves and need to slow it down. Plus we need a curfew because if it’s good for France then we should have one also. They sound kind of cool.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 06:24

I feel so envious of my friends in Germany who can have a friend over for dinner and have a hair cut. I'm also so envious of most European countries where there is some level of hospitality open. Most of those countries were much more careful than the UK over winter. We let it get out of control, that is why we are where we are.

applesandoranges221 · 04/03/2021 06:26

I agree with you OP - and yesterday's announcement that furlough will be extended sadly makes me think it won't be ending anytime soon! I do take some - very cold - comfort from recent events in Ireland; whilst civil disobedience would definitely not be my preference, I think that people are very much starting to be more cognisant of the massive implications for civil liberties and extra level of control this government has asserted compared to Europe.

TooMuchYarn · 04/03/2021 06:28

Switzerland has had the ‘Rule of 5’ by law, but it also ‘strongly recommended’ that those are from a max of two households. Although there is no ‘bubble’; as a single person I could meet a different person (or family of four) every day and be within the law and the recommendations.
This was lifted on March 1st, can now have private gatherings of up to 15 outside, though it’s still 5 for inside. The situation here was very bad in November (up to 10,000 cases/day in a population of 8 million) though they didn’t close the schools. It’s down to, down to about 1,000/day, though the hospitals appear to be ok now. Vaccine rollout seems really slow.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 06:29

@chameleonclara this is true in some ways but not so much for the examples given. Germany actually had a similar lockdown to us in November but tightened up in mid-December. Ireland have had really strict measures most of the time minus a few weeks in August and September and the month of December.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 06:32

I will add though that even my most reasonable friends in Germany are quite upset about the pace of vaccine rollout there. I hope it picks up soon.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 06:35

[quote IrishMamaMia]@chameleonclara this is true in some ways but not so much for the examples given. Germany actually had a similar lockdown to us in November but tightened up in mid-December. Ireland have had really strict measures most of the time minus a few weeks in August and September and the month of December.[/quote]
The op wants lower restrictions but presumably without higher deaths = I want a unicorn.

Germany isn't in the tough lockdown now - because their government didn't create a shitshow in autumn.

I'm am not knowledgeable about Ireland but their deaths are nowhere close to UK levels are they?

Ylvamoon · 04/03/2021 06:40

It just shows how biddable the British public really is.
Many countries have to deal with anti lockdown protests and riots. I know one case (Germany) where the curfew has been declared unlawful.
Meanwhile in the UK on MN it's all about don't send your kids to school, extend lockdown, this virus has mutations that are even more dangerous!

TheReluctantPhoenix · 04/03/2021 06:42

The problem with your post,OP, is that we have the highest number of deaths per capita in the world WITH our restrictions. And the NHS did become overwhelmed for a couple of months, probably at least partially accounting for our high mortality rate.

I don’t want to think of what the numbers would have been with double or triple the mixing,

In France, in the first lockdown, police checked your papers every time you went out, and a curfew is a pretty hard core limitation on civil liberties. In addition, you are not allowed to stay over at another household.

Finally, I totally disagree with your concept of a precedent being set, except where there is a threat to public health. Public emergencies always trump civil liberties and we have no reason to believe that our liberties will be limited any longer than they have to be.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 06:42

@chameleonclara lower than here per capita but higher than a lot of similar nations.

LegoPirateMonkey · 04/03/2021 06:44

I think the biggest difference is that the U.K. has the most overcrowded classrooms (which was having a hugely detrimental effect in teaching and learning well before the pandemic!) and reopened schools with no safety measures. If you look at all the countries in the OP with household mixing, what are their class sizes like and are school children wearing masks? I think you just might find the answer there. Our government was trying to bluster past the fact our school system has been starved of funds and put under extreme pressure for years and years and preferred to set themselves at odds with teaching unions rather than attempt to tackle the problem. I think we lost out on other relaxations because schools in this country have been so much more of a problem than elsewhere due to over a decade of Tory failings in education.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 04/03/2021 06:44

The U.K. public’s behaviour in December was utterly reprehensible. Maybe, as a nation, we need stricter laws, as we cannot act individually in the public interest.

I know this is multi faceted but the above is certainly a factor.

TooMuchYarn · 04/03/2021 06:44

Ireland has had a strong lockdown pretty much throughout the pandemic apart from a few weeks in the summer. They have had a good control on the cases and deaths, apart from a shockingly high death rate in care homes early on. Until Christmas, when Ireland had one of the worlds worst spikes. There were more cases in January than the whole of 2020. Since then there has been a very strict lockdown (5km limit on travel, police patrolling roads to the airport to turn people around, passport office not issuing any passports).

avenueq · 04/03/2021 06:44

It's a fundamental misunderstanding that other countries had it better in winter solely through being more careful.
The reason things took off the way they did in the UK was the B117 variant.
This is only NOW becoming dominant in eg Germany which is why there they are in fear of another wave.

CircusMistress · 04/03/2021 06:48

We've been through all this and it's not long now until we can mix again. I'd rather take it steady than end up going backwards. Corona couldn't care less about rights. Would you really have preferred higher numbers of people to have been unable to receive healthcare while sick /dying? Would you have then been posting about your right to health care? It's a pandemic!!! There's been no perfect one size fits all solution. I miss family and friends but I'd
rather speak to them on the phone, video call or on the doorstep knowing they will receive medical attention if needed. None of this past year has been easy and there's not one person who won't have suffered in some way. I've lost relatives, my children have missed out, one had a levels last year and started uni September. Another is in gcse year now. Youngest is in Yr 3/4 and has missed camps, shows, sports, a year of childhood. I've been affected at work and my mental health is fragile. If it wasn't for the vaccine things would be much worse now. We will have yo find ways to live with this and support the many who have been affected by long covid which is as high a concern to me as the no of deaths. Count your blessings and then look beyond yourself. We take too much for granted.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 06:50

@avenueq

It's a fundamental misunderstanding that other countries had it better in winter solely through being more careful. The reason things took off the way they did in the UK was the B117 variant. This is only NOW becoming dominant in eg Germany which is why there they are in fear of another wave.
This is why it is so reassuring our government is ignoring the variant risked caused by their approach to unlocking.
Twizbe · 04/03/2021 06:51

This is a classic coronavirus damned if you do, damned if you don't.

A few weeks ago I read an article where a women blamed the government for the death of her fiancé and grandparents. She said they had blood on their hands because they 'allowed' them to mix on Christmas Day.

Obviously she was hurting and looking for someone to blame for her loss.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 06:52

Great point @legopiratemonkey

TheReluctantPhoenix · 04/03/2021 06:52

@avenueq,

It is only partially the new variant. South Africa had a highly infectious variant as the dominant strain and their cases came down faster than ours, despite not vaccinating.

There are a lot of people who wilfully ignore the fact that, as a nation, people went wild in December. BJ did not help with his mixed messaging and nor did the new strain BUT behaviour was also a massive factor.

avenueq · 04/03/2021 06:53

Current unlocking plans in Germany are quicker than UK, with higher numbers by now, spread of B117 and slow vaccination
Germany's best known, highly respected and very cautious virologist says UK's plans are good.