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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
ExcusesAndAccusations · 04/03/2021 09:11

Surely if you’ve got a curfew and can only leave your house once a day for designated reasons then that in effect prohibits household mixing anyway? Did France’s pieces of paper have a box on them saying “going round to mum for a coffee?” See also Italy and Spain.

I know that those didn’t have those full-on house arrest rules in place for nearly as long as we’ve had the “no household mixing indoors” rule, but they did have them and while they had them they didn’t need to specifically ban household visits because they were not in the permitted train to leave your house?

Quit4me · 04/03/2021 09:12

@Wiredforsound

We let households mix at Christmas. That unleashed a catastrophe of epic proportions which led to the closing of schools and businesses for a further three months and a increase in deaths taking us to well over 100,000. If there’s a choice between hugging my parents and risking passing on COVID or waiting a view more months and keeping them safe, keeping them safe wins every time.
No we didn’t all mix at Christmas!!? Here in the SE no mixing on Xmas day. We haven’t been allowed to be in others houses since the start of November!! Shops and resturants / hairdressers here have opened for 11 days between October and now!!
Chloemol · 04/03/2021 09:13

Yawn

If you are not happy then do you own thing, then don’t moan if we lockdown again.

Alez · 04/03/2021 09:15

Other countries have had no mixing between households in previous lockdowns. I haven't read you whole post because it is very long but one of the reasons we may be being stricter is because of the English variant (called the Kent variant on the news here but everywhere else calls it the English variant). We're one of the few countries that it is known to have a more infectious variant of the virus so it makes sense that right now our rules would be stricter. In the past our lockdowns have been looser than other countries.

Wakeupin2022 · 04/03/2021 09:15

@Turniptracker

Totally agree. The fact that all kids can mix in school but my vaccinated parents can't come into my house is absolute bullshit.
It's not really. We are still waiting to see the impact of vaccines.

I am assuming your parents were vulnerable or esle they wouldn't have been vaccinated. My kids (as well as millions of others) have stayed at home for many many months to keep your parents safe.

Surely you and your parents can think of others for just a wee while longer?

SOSGB · 04/03/2021 09:17

Because when the lockdown was introduced, the UK also had the highest death rate in the world.

Toddlerteaplease · 04/03/2021 09:19

My cousin lives in Dubai. They had to stay within 120 meters of their home. And had to have a permit if they went any further away.

Moonstone1234 · 04/03/2021 09:22

You mention Leicester in your OP. Leicester was clearly ignoring the rules and mixing extensively (for all sorts of reasons - some good and some not so good).

They know that the chances are catching the virus when you mix households is very high. Much hiher than brushing past someone in the supermarket with a mask on. People indoors are very unlikely to be wearing masks.

rossclare · 04/03/2021 09:34

@ChameleonClara

not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

UK level of deaths is highly unusual too.

People need to just stop with the denial. If you're happy to see deaths rise again, then push for indoor mixing. The too are inextricably linked.

No one is happy with the restrictions.

On the whole i support the Govt and right now i'm beyond arguing and contemplating this year. I've got my eye on the prize in June.

However, i totally do not believe our death rate - there are far too many stories of deaths being put down to CV19 when people were sadly terminally ill or hadn't even had a test. I don't like that people are being manipulated into compliance based on these (incorrect in my view) death rates.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 09:37

However, i totally do not believe our death rate

Some people I met last year don't believe dinosaurs existed. Some people still believe the earth is flat.

Excess death rates do not lie.

DumplingsAndStew · 04/03/2021 09:39

@rossclare

In which way do you disbelieve the death rate?

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 09:41

@Quit4me exactly, I managed to get to the hairdresser during that window but couldn't get to a restaurant as my child was isolating. The majority of people I know did not mix households at Christmas. I don't really understand when people talk about all the mixing in December as everything around here was closed.

dancingbymyself · 04/03/2021 09:42

...but we've had the worst death rate in Europe, if not the world, no? So it makes sense to me that we're now living with the consequences of that.

Quit4me · 04/03/2021 09:46

Op I totally agree with you.
We were the only part of the world here, where I wasn’t allowed to see my parents on Christmas Day. Nowhere else in the world was this the case.

This banging on about ‘we had the highest death rate’ ‘English varient’
Well why was that then? Why did we have the highest death rate? Why are we one of only a few countries with a new varient??
CLUE: it wasn’t because of very limited (to none in some cases!) household mixing here. Look further, look deeper. It is very convenient for those in charge that the majority believe this though.

Flaxmeadow · 04/03/2021 09:50

MissLucyEyelesbarrow
However, your analysis is disingenuous because many of the countries you mention (Spain, Italy, France, for a start) have had much tighter controls than the UK on leaving your own home at all, at times when their national infection rates have been high. You don't need to ban household mixing if no one is allowed to leave their house in the first place (except to shop for basic necessities).

Yes. I came on the thread to say exactly this ^

OP You are being massively disingenuous. Other major European countries did not need to ban household mixing because they couldn't mix with another household by virtue of the fact that people were only allowed out to shop at a local supermarket and then to return home immediately. Some even had carry papers to prove they were outside for this reason.

theleafandnotthetree · 04/03/2021 09:53

Well here in Ireland, so far as I can see, people are making their own decisions and risk assessments and households are mingling, albeit to a tiny degree compared to The Time Before. So while the law or advice might be draconian enough, it is not being strictly followed or enforced and if mumsnet is anything to go by, people are far less judgemental of each other for what are generally seen as people's attempts to just get through this thing with their sanity intact. Of course our overall figures and death rates etc are generally lower so bar a few months of this thing (incuding January and February) most people are not so much gripped by fear as bored by the tedium of it all.

QualityRoads · 04/03/2021 09:59

I agree with you, OP, that the need to see family is of the utmost importance. To me it is more important than letting random workmen into my house to check the water supply/overhaul my central heating sustem/ read my electricity meter. These people are much more of a Covid threat than any of my family, as they have been visiting lots of other peoples houses on a daily basis. They are therefore banned from my house until such time as my family are allowed in.
The government's rules are inconsistent. Some things that generate money for the economy are permissible, wheras equivalent things that generate no money are banned. People have common sense and logic. Such inconsistencies give them an excuse to flout the rules.
"Eat out to help out" was a ridiculous and very expensive mistake. Eating places were stuffed full and "Covid secure" was difficult to adhere to for many establishments. The fiasco over Christmas was even worse.

Quit4me · 04/03/2021 09:59

[quote IrishMamaMia]@Quit4me exactly, I managed to get to the hairdresser during that window but couldn't get to a restaurant as my child was isolating. The majority of people I know did not mix households at Christmas. I don't really understand when people talk about all the mixing in December as everything around here was closed.[/quote]
Yes quite. I don’t understand- a previous poster said people were going ‘wild’ in December!!??
Going wild where exactly? The shops were open for 9 days between the November lockdown and now!

Gerla · 04/03/2021 10:19

Another point about Italy, the rules change according to where you are / what zone you are in. I am in Italy in a red zone Sad. No household mixing allowed here.

Donotfeedthebears · 04/03/2021 10:22

I’m seeing my parents indoors on the 31st March. My baby is due a few days later and then we will be in a bubble so...

My parents will be partially / fully vaccinated by then too.

Judystilldreamsofhorses · 04/03/2021 10:28

I'm in Scotland. We had a really brief window of being allowed to meet people in our homes in the summer, a local lockdown for three weeks in August, and then I think from September it was back to no-one inside a private dwelling. I may be a bit out there with dates - it feels like it's been forever!

I find this the most surreal part of the whole thing - how can it be right for the government to say I can't have a cup of tea with my friend in my own kitchen? We're complying, but it really does feel bonkers.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 10:32

I understand the rationale but I just don't agree with it outside of crisis times such as January.

NaeBor · 04/03/2021 10:36

Many of us haven't been able to see family in a year or more because of shielding or travel restrictions, so to see people doing family dinners each week because of 'mental health' just shows to me how little they give a fuck about the rest of us, or other people's physical and mental health.

This sounds like sour grapes though. I have one set of vulnerable elderly relatives and we've been seeing them from the garden, but the rest of us (all U40 with no health issues) have been seeing each other. That doesn't mean we don't give a fuck about the vulnerable relatives who haven't had anyone in their house for a year.

"Many of us haven't seen family in a year because of shielding or travel restrictions" so you're saying everyone else has to suffer because you're suffering? How is that not selfish, exactly Hmm?

I've given up a year of my children's education and a shit tonne of income from my suffering business. I've given up more than enough for a virus that is a minuscule threat to me and my closest family. And the family members for which it is only a tiny threat to would be doing what they're doing to keep themselves safe from it wether the rest of us were in lockdown or not!!

That's been the problem since day 1.

Other people can lock themselves away in their homes if they want to, I make my own risk assessments and so does literally everyone else I know. This mumsnet bubble where everyone sticks to (often stricter make-believe) rules is exactly that, a bubble.

The virus is mostly spreading in hospitals, carehomes, and workplaces.

39 cases in a population of half of a million people and it's absolutely fucking laughable that people are not seeing their own mothers, sisters, children etc. 3 cases in the council area I worked in, population 120,000.

PickAChew · 04/03/2021 10:37

Our rules are stricter than others about things. Other countries are stricter.

We are allowed out of our houses without having to ask for permission. We don't have to stay in our immediate neighbourhood. I know which way around I would rather have it.

rawalpindithelabrador · 04/03/2021 10:42

It's fucking ridiculous and the only thing more ridiculous is people complying with it.