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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
freckles20 · 04/03/2021 07:27

That is interesting OP. I'm from
Leicester and has been brutal.

My elderly DF and DM live alone but separately so forming bubbles has been a huge issue. Both are shadows of their former selves, I think my Dad would prefer his life to end soon than live like this.

My teenage son has become extremely withdrawn and his MH has been badly affected. He's had barely any face to face social contact. He's beyond the age where he wants to spend time with me. It's a completely normal developmental stage, he needs his friends but has been under the tightest restrictions for the whole time. I am extremely worried about him.

In my family the danger to our health is now lockdown not covid. The damage has already been done, it won't simply disappear if we 'hang on a bit longer' for restrictions to lift.

Wakeupin2022 · 04/03/2021 07:27

It is only partially the new variant. South Africa had a highly infectious variant as the dominant strain and their cases came down faster than ours, despite not vaccinating.

I have read the SA is not as transmissible as UK variant. Not sure if its confirmed though.

peak2021 · 04/03/2021 07:29

Spain has had almost staying in your home completely for various periods.

What has been bad about this is the lack of certain other restrictions, especially on movement into and out of the country, and that for certain professions, wfh was not compulsory.

Witchesbelazy · 04/03/2021 07:31

It worries me a year on people are so comfortable with this.

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 07:33

"You can't mix indoors with the British variant. It spreads so quickly"

OP's point though was that the household restrictions were in place for many months before the Kent variant, so the difference between UK-Europe government's approach can't really be explained by the variants. It is interesting - in many ways France, Spain, Italy were stricter than UK at first - requirement for a piece of paper to say why you were out of the house in France, and I think I read that in Spain, weren't children simply not allowed to go out for a period last year?

MiaMc · 04/03/2021 07:33

Maybe, as a nation, we need stricter laws, as we cannot act individually in the public interest

This unfortunately.
It showed in the first lockdown- more people were compliant as they were worried about themselves. Then when they thought they weren’t at high risk they weren’t so bothered about protecting other people.
We’re seeing it now with people who’ve been vaccinated relaxing their behaviour and no longer caring so much about social distancing - because they think they’re ok.

The other point is that most European countries have more hospital beds per capita than us.

Druidlookingidiot · 04/03/2021 07:34

@TheBitchOfTheVicar

I’d say the right to life is the most fundamental right.
Try telling the virus that!
110APiccadilly · 04/03/2021 07:35

@ChameleonClara

not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

UK level of deaths is highly unusual too.

People need to just stop with the denial. If you're happy to see deaths rise again, then push for indoor mixing. The too are inextricably linked.

No one is happy with the restrictions.

Ok, so we had very strict restrictions, and a high number of deaths, and that shows that relaxing restrictions leads to more deaths? I'm not sure I buy the logic.
TheReluctantPhoenix · 04/03/2021 07:36

@MiaMc,

You have got the nail on the head on the two main points:

Not enough hospital beds
Selfish populace

avenueq · 04/03/2021 07:42

Funny how other countries say exactly the same about their own populace, and government.

SexTrainGlue · 04/03/2021 07:43

@Witchesbelazy

It worries me a year on people are so comfortable with this.
What do you mean by 'comfortable' in this context?

Remaining broadly supportive of the need for restrictions, or actually being happy about it? They're far from the same thing

Lockdownbear · 04/03/2021 07:44

I'm convinced people will analyse data from covid for years.

Starting points, health, fitness, population density, age, health service, schools.
The effects of masks, handwashing, gels, screens in shops, social distancing.
The effects of mixing. Mixing where cash is involved vs in a private house Hmm

The numbers of covid deaths.

The MH issues, inc suicides, the effects on physical fitness, eyesight. Issues with delayed treatment for other illnesses.

The full effect of lockdowns will take years to come out.

Op lots seem to think NS is handling covid better the BJ. Reality large chunks of Scotland haven't been allowed in other peoples houses since September, 6th months with the exception of one day and even at that they tried to persuade people not to do it.
The toll on MH has been horrendous.

joanneg36 · 04/03/2021 07:44

Completely agree OP and I’m genuinely shocked that so many people are still willing to go along with this rule.

It’s a basic human right - which is very much not true of other things we are still allowed to do - eg queue up in Costa and get a takeaway coffee.

I could understand/accept it last year when we didn’t know what we were dealing with, but now, 12 months on and with 20 million vaccinated, I am baffled that people are still complying... the threat of ‘possible new variants’ should not be enough to ban someone from seeing close family, especially elderly relatives who now have a greater chance of dying of something else before May than they do of Covid.

itsgettingwierd · 04/03/2021 07:45

@TheVeryThing

What makes you think the rules in Ireland have been influenced by the UK? That’s a bit arrogant of you. There has been lots of talk about trying to adopt an all-island approach but the DUP are not keen. The rules are similar at the moment as we are both in lockdown but that has not been the case a lot of the time. Our lockdown rules are predominantly as a result of a very powerful & extremely cautious CMO.
Very true.

And Iirc Ireland moved first last March and announced school closures and i remember U.K. being encouraged to follow and believing we would follow as there was now no real argument our government could give against it.

And we did follow a week or later although I think the announcement was made in a smaller timescale?

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 07:48

"The other point is that most European countries have more hospital beds per capita than us."

There hasn't been much discussion of this point over the past year, though it is an interesting one. I think I've only seen figures for Germany. Does that mean that a higher proportion of employment is in hospitals/healthcare than in UK as well? One point that would be worth revisiting is whether from now on we should be aiming to keep permanent excess capacity - beds, but also staff working in other fields of medicine normally but ready to switch into intensive care when necessary - to avoid having to lock down the next time this happens.

Obviously that would be very expensive - I suppose that there is an ethical question whether we should borrow more money to fund that now, to be repaid by the as yet unborn!

rawalpindithelabrador · 04/03/2021 07:50

I agree, OP.

itsgettingwierd · 04/03/2021 07:50

I think though other counties have had other mixing much more restricted?

Examples I'm wondering where differences also lie are:

Schools
Gyms/leisure
Pubs/restaurants
Cinemas/theatres etc.

I know Spain opened nightclubs last year and saw a mass outbreak in areas after their uni finishers had their parties?

Have they had as much household mixing in schools? Have they all opened as ours did, with as large a class sizes and without things such as masks?

Have they opened leisure facilities and allowed as much, more or less household mixing in those places as we have?

Same with pubs and restaurants?

I agree that it's a very important debate when we've had our liberties restricted to the point visiting family is illegal but I think to dig deep into the reasons why needs all the data from all the sectors from each of those countries.

Wiredforsound · 04/03/2021 07:57

We let households mix at Christmas. That unleashed a catastrophe of epic proportions which led to the closing of schools and businesses for a further three months and a increase in deaths taking us to well over 100,000. If there’s a choice between hugging my parents and risking passing on COVID or waiting a view more months and keeping them safe, keeping them safe wins every time.

Turniptracker · 04/03/2021 08:02

Totally agree. The fact that all kids can mix in school but my vaccinated parents can't come into my house is absolute bullshit.

islockdownoveryet · 04/03/2021 08:06

It makes sense the less mixing you do less likely of passing on .
But mixing is allowed we have bubbles / families that parents are no longer together are able to mix between both families. All this makes sense as it’s needed.
Other countries have curfews why ?
Bits of paper to say where you are going why ?
I think some countries even banned exercise at certain times why ?
None of those things will stop the spread but mixing households will . I for one will rather do that than someone tell me I need a piece of paper when I need to get some milk.

apalledandshocked · 04/03/2021 08:08

@avenueq

Funny how other countries say exactly the same about their own populace, and government.
I cam on to say this! EXACTLY the same arguements are going on about how "are rules are the most arbitrary and strict. No-one else has banned XXX" versus "Its because the population of this country is so bad at following the rules. Look how much more sensible they are in XXX" in the Netherlands, in France and probably all the other countries you mentioned.
Iootraw1 · 04/03/2021 08:10

I agree with OP’s post. To make it unlawful to have any personable contact with own loved ones is detrimental to MH and seriously flawed. They should have allowed us to use our common sense around this - I’m sure few would be hugging or kissing and being conservative with who they meet. It’s crazy that people have been able to return to workplaces and even go to football matches whilst we go without contact of our most dear ones. And don’t let
Me hear anyone start on about ‘ the right to life’ because that’s exactly what we need a right to live! Temporary restrictions yes absolutely but this has been prolonged and drawn out and cruel.

Notonthestairs · 04/03/2021 08:11

Personally I've wondered whether having the largest school class sizes have made a significant difference in our transmission rates. Schools being open is more important to me than indoor mixing.

And I apologise because I've written this countless times before but we have 10,000 FTE doctors and 40,000 nursing positions empty. We have far fewer beds than 15 years ago. Those shortages have an impact.

www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/blogs/staff-shortages-left-the-nhs-vulnerable-to-the-covid-19-storm

Marchitectmummy · 04/03/2021 08:12

@Lockdownbear

I'm convinced people will analyse data from covid for years.

Starting points, health, fitness, population density, age, health service, schools.
The effects of masks, handwashing, gels, screens in shops, social distancing.
The effects of mixing. Mixing where cash is involved vs in a private house Hmm

The numbers of covid deaths.

The MH issues, inc suicides, the effects on physical fitness, eyesight. Issues with delayed treatment for other illnesses.

The full effect of lockdowns will take years to come out.

Op lots seem to think NS is handling covid better the BJ. Reality large chunks of Scotland haven't been allowed in other peoples houses since September, 6th months with the exception of one day and even at that they tried to persuade people not to do it.
The toll on MH has been horrendous.

It will be very difficult to analyse accurately in years to come in a World context. UK has prioritised understanding and analysing numbers of people infected by Covid. The wide track ansctrace, level of testing until now and into the future is beyond many countries.

My husband spent some of tbe past year in Spain for work, he has identified many differences between our experience in UK and at least the period he was in Spain. He believes Spain were less transparent and his colleagues complained and still do that once levels reach a number thr Spanish government were unhappy with reporting on figures stopped. UK had the opposite approach, our government appear and address thr nations more, increase transparency etc.

Spain as far as I can understand and not unique in purporting to retain calm through withdrawal of information.

CornishYarg · 04/03/2021 08:12

The government's approach to this has always been to shift the onus (and hence the blame) to individuals to try to distract from their own failings. So we have had draconian rules around household mixing in place for large parts of the year and the narrative of rule breakers being to blame is consistently pushed despite evidence that compliance has been higher than expected.

Meanwhile, the government says wfh if you can, yet in this latest lockdown in particular, many employers whose staff can work from home are still insisting they come in. The government has done nothing to address this. (Instead, they spent most of January issuing threats about the exercise rules being tightened further ffs.) Prior to the quarantine hotels that have just been introduced, quarantine wasn't properly enforced and was only introduced several months into the pandemic. Covid positive patients were discharged into care homes last spring. The list goes on.