Only country with a household mixing ban

[ByTheHarbour]

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

@TheReluctantPhoenix are there any figures that actually prove that?

It's an interesting list, but - but like an MOT - it's only telling what it's like at one time

It's not covering the whole pattern of restrictions, and when for example other countries were not allowed out at all (no household mixing when no-one allowed out, not even for exercise) Nor is it relating level of restriction to level of transmission. Nor is it discussing which variants were present, despite that being such an important driver to rate of transmission.

In France curfew and closing bars and restaurants since October is clearly not working as cases are up to 26k daily yesterday.
The vaccine rollout is appallingly slow.
And yet people are mixing indoors.
Long lunches in family groups.
As long as you're not out after 6pm nobody minds.
Neighbours from Paris are coming to their holiday homes.
Its a mess.

I agree with the op. The no mixing of households is disproportionate and having a massive toll on mental health. It is extraordinary that rule of six isn’t allowed even outdoors and that children playing together has been discouraged.

I agree with you. We are one of the only countries on the world who have completely banned household mixing for today long. It’s not sustainable and most people are beginning to crack now. I understand the need for some restrictions but two households inside should be allowed. Even in Spain who had a stricter first lockdown and have also been hit hard by covid they have only had no mixing for a very short period of time the rest of the year.

The fact that the U.K. has the highest per capita death rate and toughest restrictions indicates to me that the policy of just locking down was ineffective and that the government should have considered making schools safer and improving healthcare among other things.

Cuddle contacts is a brilliant name. !!

@avenueq,

What kind of figures are you looking for? You can see the case and death numbers in U.K. and SA. and make a simple comparison of the r number relative to the ‘natural’ r number.

However, it is impossible to get mixing numbers as they are, clearly, illegal and impossible (without an effective technology based app, which many would regard as intrusive) to measure.

However, are you denying that after the December unlocking many people decided to have a normal December, regardless of Corona? Even with a natural r number of 4-4.5 for the new strain (relative to 3 for the original) the growth in cases in December, despite no shops or restaurants, shows that people pretty much ignored restrictions.

Probably because we are the only ones who cant follow simple rules 🤷🏼‍♀️

@110APiccadilly

I think it's very interesting that posters seem to be concentrating on the fact that there's one other country where this is also true, and not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

I share OP's concerns, I think it's terrifying that people just accept the government has the right to ban you from having any visitors. I live in Wales and there's not been a single moment in the last year when I can have whoever I like in my own home - the most I've been allowed is people from my own household bubble last summer.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I loathe this quote because it sounds so noble and high-minded and yet is completely impracticable and rails against human nature. If you’ve lived under a dictatorship you would know this. Wouldn’t you give up some liberties if your family or children were under threat?

🙄

@Stopsnowing

The fact that the U.K. has the highest per capita death rate and toughest restrictions indicates to me that the policy of just locking down was ineffective and that the government should have considered making schools safer and improving healthcare among other things.

Or it reflects the fact that we locked down too late in the first place and have failed to

Well if u think everyone abides by this rule then you are sorely mistaken .they can say what they like lots of households mix. Being with family is more important and some including me are willing to take the risk .

*failed to fully control it ever since, so had to have longer lasting restrictions.

I do agree we should have tried for a harder full lockdown and then loosen off more, because this grinding level of constant restriction is awful. But with the level of contacts we have, and the lack of success shown in somewhere like France, that has cases still rising with the type of loosening you discuss, it's hard to see an answer for indoor mixing, especially with new variants emerging.

Shops and restaurants were open in many places in December. But everyone I know was still careful

@TheReluctantPhoenix

The problem with your post,OP, is that we have the highest number of deaths per capita in the world WITH our restrictions. And the NHS did become overwhelmed for a couple of months, probably at least partially accounting for our high mortality rate.

I don’t want to think of what the numbers would have been with double or triple the mixing,

In France, in the first lockdown, police checked your papers every time you went out, and a curfew is a pretty hard core limitation on civil liberties. In addition, you are not allowed to stay over at another household.

Finally, I totally disagree with your concept of a precedent being set, except where there is a threat to public health. Public emergencies always trump civil liberties and we have no reason to believe that our liberties will be limited any longer than they have to be.

If we trust how the deaths have been recorded.....and do we know if all countries record in the same way? I am not convinced when it all comes out in the wash that the UK will be much of an outlier from other densely populated countries

@aprilanne

Well if u think everyone abides by this rule then you are sorely mistaken .they can say what they like lots of households mix. Being with family is more important and some including me are willing to take the risk .

It's not just you taking the risk, though, is it?

Being with family is important and people meeting up outside are lower risk, but selfish people who just have to meet indoors when it isn't necessary are part of the problem.

Many of us haven't been able to see family in a year or more because of shielding or travel restrictions, so to see people doing family dinners each week because of 'mental health' just shows to me how little they give a fuck about the rest of us, or other people's physical and mental health.

In France, children aged 6+ have had to wear masks in classrooms since October. In Greece, curfews start at 6pm in many areas. The Czech Republic has now closed all nurseries and primary schools, including for children with disabilities.

We have indeed fixated on household mixing in the UK, but countries have relaxed and tightened rules in so many different ways that you can’t fully compare.

Do you know what the restrictions are on household mixing in the USA op (obviously they vary between states!) - also Australia when lockdowns are introduced (as in Victoria)? I know your pp was specifically about Europe but it would be interesting to know.

To the pp saying the reason for so many cases in December was people not complying, I don't think we know that, do we? It may have been the variant, maybe partly infections in hospitals (don't know whether infection control is more or less effective elsewhere, and if so why), maybe other countries' contact tracing was more effective. There could be various reasons.

@Pootle40 you don't need to trust how they're being recorded, you can look at 'excess deaths' (ie deaths above the 5 year rolling average for that day) and see that the UK has far higher deaths than other countries outside Latin America as a % and mostly as a total number. The majority of these will be covid deaths, as the number of deaths by suicide, or other illnesses has increased but not by huge numbers.

www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938

Because if you doubt ban household mixing, the spread would be like wildfire.

Yes it’s frustrating, but what’s the point in effectively closing all business, sending the country in to unheard of levels of debt, to let people mix at home in such close contact

Can you imagine how many more deaths there would have been had they not banned household mixing? The whole ‘save the nhs from being overwhelmed’ theme, would have been moot.

Not really sure there’s any point comparing to other countries as they’re hardly doing well regarding covid numbers, so it’s all irrelevant

We have, in theory, harsh laws, but very limited enforcement, either legal or ‘shaming’.

I am not talking a play date or seeing one’s elderly parents, I am talking indoor parties. Rita Ora hired out a restaurant and mixed 30 households and, when caught, paid a ‘surcharge’ of £30,000. As far as I know, it has had zero effect on her career or social standing, and the restaurant will still be allowed to reopen. There was a school in North London that regularly hosted weddings for 100+ people in lockdown. Again, minimal consequences.

We have strong laws but, with minimal enforcement, they are pretty meaningless.

Italy is on the up.

France looks to be too.

Germany struggling to contain and may be in a worse state soon.

You can't mix indoors with the British variant. It spreads so quickly

Hopefully we have got numbers low enough, plus natural immunity and vaccinations will mean that ant spread when schools go back and further spread when more opens up is manageable.

But we can only start to ease due to vaccinations.

The household mixing is a hard one. In Ireland too, strictest rules in the EU. And awful lot of negativity in the media, attacking who ever is the new culprit du jour (Brazilians one day, students the next). It’s depressing. Our death rates are about half the UKs, and about mid-table for the EU - not sure what that says about lockdowns.

[quote OverTheRubicon]@Pootle40 you don't need to trust how they're being recorded, you can look at 'excess deaths' (ie deaths above the 5 year rolling average for that day) and see that the UK has far higher deaths than other countries outside Latin America as a % and mostly as a total number. The majority of these will be covid deaths, as the number of deaths by suicide, or other illnesses has increased but not by huge numbers.

www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938[/quote]
Yeah I get that but a lot of this MI is a bit one dimensional. Don't get me wrong I'm no supporter of the government but surely you'd need to understand the demographic of a population or interrogate it further ie % of population living in urban areas, % of population in care homes, how aged the country is; overall health stats etc, climate etc. There are so many reasons that surely you can't look it at this in isolation.

".....and do we know if all countries record in the same way? I am not convinced when it all comes out in the wash that the UK will be much of an outlier from other densely populated countries"

It should be possible to compare total excess deaths (adjusted for changes in age structure?) across countries. That would not be affected by different definitions of 'death from coronavirus' - although it of course doesn't distinguish between different causes,. I haven't seen recent comparisons. I also don't know if all countries define excess deaths in the same way - eg excess over the 5 yr average - though obviously it would be possible to make your own chart for that!
Even then the comparisons may not be real answer, because you have to look at what happened in 2019 as well. One explanation put forward for some countries (UK) having such a high level of excess deaths in 2020 is that there were relatively few in 2019. Sorry, not that helpful, but I suppose I'm agreeing that it's quite difficult to analyse the statistics!