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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Dontknowanymore2 · 06/03/2021 08:50

I agree I think it has been very strict here if you have been adhering absolutely to sage. Unfortunately for me my daughter has and this has so hard to the point of me calling samaritans which wouldn't matter if I told her as she follows the "law" speaking to other people as I have as I see grandparents with grandchildren they say oh we are in a bubble. But strictly speaking they shouldn't be but as they are coping fine and I am in bits I know which I would rather be doing. There will be so much fallout from this, depression etc.

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 08:55

@newstart1234

The ‘fleeing from London’ comment was reference to not being allowed to see family legally. Here in Denmark it has never been illegal certainly not at Xmas or any religious festival. So no crowds were seen leaving Copenhagen or Aarhus for example.

Restraint hasn’t been shown by the gov, I think it’s a way of shifting the blame onto the public for their fuck ups.

I see, sorry I misunderstood your post and thought it was a UK post complaining about people not following the rules!

Mostly what gets reported in the UK about Denmark is that it has strict lockdowns and has had far fewer deaths than Sweden which didn't lock down, therefore proving that the strict British lockdown is correct. What never gets mentioned is that the Danish 'lockdowns' would hardly even seem like a lockdown by UK standards. In fact the household mixing rules are roughly the equivalent of UK tier 1!

Am I right in thinking that there's also never been significant restrictions on what you can do outdoors, and certainly never the kind of hysteria that we've had about whether people should be in parks or whether they should be allowed to drive 5 miles for exercise?

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danishkids · 06/03/2021 08:57

In denmark. there is actually NO rule about how many people you can have in your house. The 5 is a recommendation. So
We often have 10-15 people
At a time in our house. It’s 5 people
If it’s in a public place. In private homes the danish government have no control
On how many people
Gather

newstart1234 · 06/03/2021 09:09

There has never been restrictions on private outdoor gatherings Afaik.

QualityRoads · 06/03/2021 09:14

Firstly, I don't have a problem with the government banning people from entering my house if that is what is necessary to defeat the pandemic. I do have a problem with a government who makes exceptions to this rule by allowing people to enter my house because they are there to earn money. Both groups of people breathe the air in my house and therefore pose a risk. The former people are more controllable, I can limit the time they are inside, ask them to take precautions, not invite them if I choose. I see no logic in this policy, only thar this government has prioritised the ecomony over family life. I won't be inviting tradesmen into my home, but there are many who will because it is "allowed".

The second flaw in the rules is the weak way that the goverment have encouraged "working from home". They have largely left this in the hands of un-medically-qualified employers or even office managers. If it is possible to work from home it should be mandatory by law to do so. Offices spread the virus as people are sharing the same air. Again it shows a leniency to businesses and a draconian attitude to family and social life. Family life doesn't appear to matter to them because it is not a tax earner.

Thirdly the borders and air flights fiasco. The failures of restrictions and precautions here over the last year has been jaw-dropping.

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 09:16

@laffer

I haven't RTFT so sorry if this has been mentioned, but I live in Northern Ireland where we can bubble with another household. You don't have to live alone and can have up to 10 from 2 households.

It has been a lifeline.

Interesting thanks. I wasn't aware of that small but significant difference between the bubble rules between NI and rest of UK.
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ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 09:29

@Aruva

The response from the media to covid has been frightening . They are now backing out . They have held the govt responsible for every death - watch BBC and ITV etc . Their rants from March last year has been nothing but irresponsible. All they tell us is about the people who are ill or dead never about those that survived or had mild symptoms . They have been at us about long covid . And never have they really highlighted obesity or chronic illness as being a factor in these deaths . I disagree with this lockdown and would have liked to see young healthy people out and about ( careful and with precautions ) .. when Boris spoke of herd immunity he was accused of genocide ; every care home death has been his responsibility.. Can you blame them for this type of lockdown . The U.K. was highlighted as the worst affected and worst managed by the great BBC and ITV. - the press and the loud voices of some people of U.K. have created this situation .. and when reasonable people speak out they are silenced by the press . Unfortunately they and a whole bunch of do gooder type of groups / associations are responsible for where we are today ..
Yes I agree that the public and media debate here has been particularly highly charged and bad tempered, and sometimes even downright offensive. "Genocide". "Boris the Butcher". "Tories culling the population".

I do wonder if the Brexit debate has indirectly played a role here. It left such a lot of polarisation in the population, a lot grudges and unsettled scores and a lot of people feeling extremely hostile and vengeful towards the government. And then into that tinderbox came the pandemic.

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JustDanceAddict · 06/03/2021 09:39

I think the govt are correct to ban it, sorry. Not because I think having one friend indoors will make a big difference, but people will take the piss and have their whole family/gang etc.
I think the govt have got a lot of things wrong, but this isn’t one of them. I don’t really care what other countries do, plenty had much harder first lockdowns than us where you couldn’t leave your house, had to produce papers etc.
We were def allowed to gather inside over summer until end Oct.

EpiphanySoul1 · 06/03/2021 09:44

@ByTheHarbour typical assuming that of course Ireland was influenced by the U.K. 😂😂😂😂

We actually locked down before the U.K. and imposed these rules before the U.K. we actually thought you were all mad with zero restrictions when the whole thing kicked off although you did cop on and impose some 1-2 weeks later.

Not that that’s particularly great as we’ve been locked down the longest!

pinkflamingo112 · 06/03/2021 09:56

yes i work for the NHS,understaffed ,undervalued,underesourced.....so a pandemic was the final straw ,covid is real ......BUT for the love of god,enough is enough !!! im quite miffed on a daily basis that we are supposed to adhere to all these restrictions ,we have the vaccine , we need to live with it ,the fall out from covid will be worse if we stay shut up.RANT OVER!!.......plus internet shopping is really annoying me now with parcels that don't arrive etc!!

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 10:15

[quote EpiphanySoul1]@ByTheHarbour typical assuming that of course Ireland was influenced by the U.K. 😂😂😂😂

We actually locked down before the U.K. and imposed these rules before the U.K. we actually thought you were all mad with zero restrictions when the whole thing kicked off although you did cop on and impose some 1-2 weeks later.

Not that that’s particularly great as we’ve been locked down the longest![/quote]
My main reason for thinking that Ireland had been influenced by the UK (or perhaps "coordinated with" would have been a better way of putting it!) was the support bubble system. Ireland has recently introduced this with the same name and virtually identical in every detail to the English one, which seemed like a bit too much of a co-incidence! And in particular I wondered if cross border practicalities with the North had caused the coordination, eg so that people could have a cross-border bubble (although another poster has since pointed out that NI bubble rules are actually different to the English / RoI rules, so obviously not!)

I have clearly offended a few people with this for which I am really sorry. That wasn't my intention at all. I do know that at other times during the pandemic the rules and timing in the Republic of Ireland were very different.

OP posts:
Lockdownbear · 06/03/2021 10:21

BytheHarbour I wonder if both the UK and RoI took advice from the same places at that point they would both have been watching Italy and Spain where it was all kicking off.

Scotland, NI and Wales appear to have done stuff differently because they can, no real justification for it.

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 10:35

@Dontknowanymore2

I agree I think it has been very strict here if you have been adhering absolutely to sage. Unfortunately for me my daughter has and this has so hard to the point of me calling samaritans which wouldn't matter if I told her as she follows the "law" speaking to other people as I have as I see grandparents with grandchildren they say oh we are in a bubble. But strictly speaking they shouldn't be but as they are coping fine and I am in bits I know which I would rather be doing. There will be so much fallout from this, depression etc.
Yes this is what really worries me, some people feel pressured to completely isolate themselves from their loved ones and then either they or their loved ones end up in a mental health crisis.

This is exactly the sort of thing which would be resolved by officially allowing a bit of one to one contact as per Netherlands and Germany. It doesn't require the rule of 6 to return, it just requires a little chink of easing from where we are now to make such a difference to people in desperate need of some contact. It's ridiculous that the government apparently sees no intermediate options between the rule of 6 and complete zero. As a species we just aren't designed to go to zero on this.

I really hope you are still managing to cope, it's been such a tough winter. Spring is here and hopefully not long now until you can at least meet outdoors. Smile

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ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 10:47

@newstart1234

There has never been restrictions on private outdoor gatherings Afaik.
Not just gatherings, but have there ever been restrictions on what you can do outdoors individually? Eg. has there ever been a time when you couldn't sit in a park or go for a drive to the countryside? Or a rule that you can only be outdoors if you are 'exercising'?
OP posts:
ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 10:50

@Lockdownbear

BytheHarbour I wonder if both the UK and RoI took advice from the same places at that point they would both have been watching Italy and Spain where it was all kicking off.

Scotland, NI and Wales appear to have done stuff differently because they can, no real justification for it.

Possibly although Ireland did have different rules and timings to us in the spring. It's since the Autumn that they have become very similar.
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miimblemomble · 06/03/2021 10:58

Yes this is what really worries me, some people feel pressured to completely isolate themselves from their loved ones and then either they or their loved ones end up in a mental health crisis

Agreed. My mum and sister are in Scotland where the fear of god seems to be put into people. They have stuck rigidly to the rules, especially my sister. She already suffers depression and anxiety, and I can hear it bubbling up again when we speak. But she’s so fearful of passing it to my parents- despite the fact that she goes nowhere to catch it - that she won’t visit them.

Lilmisswhite · 06/03/2021 11:08

What's happened in China ? Started there . But seems mostly back to normal for them

Lockdownbear · 06/03/2021 11:36

@Lilmisswhite

What's happened in China ? Started there . But seems mostly back to normal for them
China they must be well on with the vaccine program. I'd heard of a friend of a friend getting vaccinated in summer. Which ties to people on here who have links to Unis saying Chinese students arrived back in September having been vaccinated.
newstart1234 · 06/03/2021 13:56

There’s never been restrictions on what can be done privately (not for business or formal organisation) outside.

I think it’s helps that 40% of the population work for the government and that it’s highly digitised economy. Schools are small and the local council have a lot of autonomy.

There’s good and bad in all places though.

Trickyboy · 06/03/2021 14:06

On the basis that Covid is a Virus
(a fact that even the looniest conspiracy theorist would have trouble denying) and ..

It transmits via aerosol droplets from person to person. (Another FACT)

On that basis would people moving between households ...
a) increase the spread and therefore more deaths ?

Or

b) Decrease the spread and therefore less deaths. ?

It really isn't fucking rocket science.

To compare the UK with other countries rules has ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS IN REALITY !! and shows a complete lack of understanding with regard to the control of epidemics. Unless the 'other' country had ;

The exact same population
The same population density
The same population diversity (multi-generational households /BAME /age demographic

AND

The rules on movement in the 'other' country were the same as the UK. at the same time e.g. ;

Whether schools were open or shut.
If open , then the density in school.
Working population moving around
Retail open or shut
Which retail open and therefore footfall to the shops .
Public transport usage.

And LAST but by no means least
.
What rate of infection we have.
What rate we had when restrictions were put in place.
Public compliance with the rules.

Find a country with EXACTLY the same circumstances as the UK and then compare . Otherwise the OPs premise is utter bollocks.

We are in the situation we are in because we were too slow and too soft at the start. Once it's got a grip it's impossible to put back in the box.
Boris likes to be popular . His need for popularity lead him to shy away from tough decisions at the start - which killed thousands.
Just take one look at the death figures after people were daft enough to spend Christmas together. One sodding day of mixing followed by the highest death rates of all.

No OP. It's not wrong. It's too fucking late by a year but it's absolutely the right thing to do if we want this isolation to end.

amispeakingenglish · 06/03/2021 14:38

And we still have the highest DEATH RATE!!!!!!!!!!

Breaking the rules is the reason and the reason we might very well have another lockdown. Will people never learn, educate yourself as to how a virus works.

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 14:38

@Trickyboy

On the basis that Covid is a Virus (a fact that even the looniest conspiracy theorist would have trouble denying) and ..

It transmits via aerosol droplets from person to person. (Another FACT)

On that basis would people moving between households ...
a) increase the spread and therefore more deaths ?

Or

b) Decrease the spread and therefore less deaths. ?

It really isn't fucking rocket science.

To compare the UK with other countries rules has ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS IN REALITY !! and shows a complete lack of understanding with regard to the control of epidemics. Unless the 'other' country had ;

The exact same population
The same population density
The same population diversity (multi-generational households /BAME /age demographic

AND

The rules on movement in the 'other' country were the same as the UK. at the same time e.g. ;

Whether schools were open or shut.
If open , then the density in school.
Working population moving around
Retail open or shut
Which retail open and therefore footfall to the shops .
Public transport usage.

And LAST but by no means least
.
What rate of infection we have.
What rate we had when restrictions were put in place.
Public compliance with the rules.

Find a country with EXACTLY the same circumstances as the UK and then compare . Otherwise the OPs premise is utter bollocks.

We are in the situation we are in because we were too slow and too soft at the start. Once it's got a grip it's impossible to put back in the box.
Boris likes to be popular . His need for popularity lead him to shy away from tough decisions at the start - which killed thousands.
Just take one look at the death figures after people were daft enough to spend Christmas together. One sodding day of mixing followed by the highest death rates of all.

No OP. It's not wrong. It's too fucking late by a year but it's absolutely the right thing to do if we want this isolation to end.

Your a or b question is ridiculous and completely fails to engage with the complexity of the issues and trade offs involved.

I could equally ask you:

a) would allowing cars to travel at normal speed lead to more road deaths, or

b) would limiting all cars to 10mph lead to fewer road deaths?

Or

a) would keeping schools open in the winter lead to more flu deaths, or

b) would shutting schools every winter lead to fewer flu deaths?

I'm not saying that flu risk or road accident risk is the same size as covid risk because clearly it isn't, but just highlighting that your "we must always do whatever causes fewest deaths" line of reasoning is ridiculously simplistic.

I totally agree that comparisons with other countries are imperfect because of the other factors that you describe but that doesn't make them irrelevant. In fact that is very much part of the debate. Yes maybe country x with fewer household mixing rules has tougher restrictions on some other aspect of life instead. Maybe that's actually a better balance and maybe we should think about doing that too.

I disagree that where we are now with the infection rate has anything to do with how slow or otherwise our response was at the start of the pandemic. Yes maybe mistakes were made at the start, maybe that resulted in extra deaths last spring. No doubt that will all come out in future inquiries etc. But, at the end of the spring wave our infection rate came down to the same very low level over the summer as most other countries, so going into the autumn were effectively starting afresh with the spread.

OP posts:
amispeakingenglish · 06/03/2021 14:39

@trickyboy

And all of this too, well said

ByTheHarbour · 06/03/2021 15:00

Also completely disagree with @Trickyboy that one day of permitted mixing on Christmas Day (in some parts of the country only) had anything much to do with the January death rates. The wave, fuelled by the new variant, was building consistently throughout December. Christmas Day would have made at most a tiny difference, and I suspect it was probably more than cancelled out by there being far less mixing in workplaces and schools during Christmas week.

OP posts: