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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
spottygymbag · 04/03/2021 08:20

@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead You wondered about other countries not mentioned... In Australia the lockdown restrictions are pretty tight in each state whenever we have one. No mixing between households, no going out except for exercise, work, groceries, on essential businesses and shops shut. Vic was the the most intense and also had a 5km limit from your home for exercise.
In the recent NSW lockdown at Christmas in the northern beaches the whole peninsula was put under lockdown and the rest of NSW initially had no visitors and then eased to 10adults just in time for Christmas Day. We have had some kind of restrictions the whole time from March last year, just in varying levels but it can change on a dime and the internal borders can shut leaving people stranded. Gyms, restaurants, venues shops etc all have Max limits, sanitizer, app to check in and masks on public transport. We've been wfh for almost a year now.
NZ currently has a lockdown for Auckland- no schools, no mixing households, gyms and restaurants and non essential shops are shut. Border enforced around Auckland, lighter restrictions for rest of NZ.

DumplingsAndStew · 04/03/2021 08:21

Those that allow indoor mixing (from outwith extended households), are they expected to social distance from each other indoors?

Because that's something I'm seeing many, many people have a problem with. Am not sure if we, as a whole, just don't know what 2 metres looks like, or if we're just a society that continually thinks "Ah, I'm sure it'll be alright this one time!"

ItsMarch · 04/03/2021 08:26

@ThatDamnKrampus

Probably because we are the only ones who cant follow simple rules 🤷🏼‍♀️
You beat me to it!

I was going to say the same. The number of people I know who go in and out of each others houses every single week has been incredibly depressing. I’m not even talking immediate family (although they are), I also know of DC’s school friends, work colleagues and neighbours.

Honestly the rates of compliance being reported are terribly misleading or they are only asking the ones that do! Our household is definitely the exception by adhering to the guidance in our social circles and as a result we feel completely isolated.

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 08:30

Thanks Spotty, very interesting! I think we have a general impression here that things are basically normal in Aus except for incoming/outgoing travel and emergency lockdowns (eg Perth), so it's interesting to hear what 'long-term' restrictions there are.

Katie517 · 04/03/2021 08:31

I have mentioned this a few times on other threads OP but still people don’t seem to get that it is fundamentally wrong to dictate what people can and can’t do in their own homes (some other countries have tried to impose such restrictions but have been told by the courts that this would be illegal). It’s also worth noting that in some countries this is advice but not legally enforceable.

Let’s face it people are household mixing now and have been the whole time, but I do find it odd that no one has questioned or even challenged in court like in other countries how horrific it is that it is illegal to see a family member inside your own home.

Also we are regularly berated for having the highest death rate in Europe which to me makes it seem that this particular rule is unnecessary.

The right to family life is one of the fundamental human rights but they all seem to have been forgotten in favour of this ridiculous lockdown!

It seems there is no end to the amount people will sacrifice for an illness with over a 99% survival rate and to “save” an outdated ,underfunded health service that was really designed to “save” us.

Brefugee · 04/03/2021 08:33

Well, the numbers in Germany are rising and the relaxation of the rules will depend on local rates. Many people will continue not to mix.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 04/03/2021 08:34

@avenueq,

Of course other (western) countries are having the debate about individual freedom vs the overall good of the population. That can hardly be a surprise. We have been living under a model where self fulfilment has come to be seen as the ultimate aspiration in life and an existential threat has caused this to be questioned.

That does not mean that some countries’ populaces behaved worse than others.

We don’t see so much debate over this in Asia where people are happy to be seen as contributing to the good of all, and they have got Corona under control.

I am a huge believer in individual freedom, but not where it endangers others or causes them to curtail their life styles in fear.

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 08:35

"Am not sure if we, as a whole, just don't know what 2 metres looks like, or if we're just a society that continually thinks "Ah, I'm sure it'll be alright this one time!""

I suppose also it's just so completely contrary to the way we have always treated social interaction and, possibly, what we are evolutionarily programmed to do. Maybe physical proximity (a 3 ft distance?) has some evolutionary advantage in terms of 'bonding'?

It certainly does feel quite odd to back away from someone while having a civil conversation!

spottygymbag · 04/03/2021 08:40

@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead it's more of a "new normal" than a real normal. We're still have restrictions on indoor and outdoor gatherings, distancing x's taped to floors and the like. We reorganized my DD's birthday party several times in the lead up as the restrictions kept changing.
Swimming lessons is one parent only and they have only just removed the face mask requirement... we're 45 days covid free!
We had a Christmas team dinner and miraculously managed to get everyone into NSW and back to their home states without any borders being shut but we had to sit, strictly no mingling! Felt very strange.

Mummyoflittledragon · 04/03/2021 08:41

This country has had a succession of governments, which has stripped essential services to the bone. We therefore have to be far more careful than most Western European countries to not over burden our health care system.

We are also a country policed by consent of the population and have consistently reduced the number of police officers per capita over the past few decades. Idk about all Western European countries - I say western as we are more similar to them than Eastern. I do know in France, Belgium and Germany they are much more heavily policed and people are expected to carry identity papers. Some restrictions, such as those mentioned as having been imposed in places like France would not be imposed here. Permissions print outs (completed by the individual) and curfews as would be seen as infringements on civil liberties too far. Therefore we have other, different restrictions, more acceptable to the population.

It is not true that we are less compliant than a lot of populations. I’d say we are probably more the average. We are actually far more compliant by nature than the (much more heavily policed) French. It has been said that citizens of countries, which have Germanic based languages are more compliant and those, which have Latin based languages are less. As our language has a lot of overlap in both languages albeit Pro-Germanic in origin, and if the theory is correct, it’s probably understandable we are averagely compliant. But one thing is true, we are a largely docile population, which is why statistically the number of police per capita can be so low.

It is true the government flip flops between being too strong and too lax and that some restrictions are ridiculous. Leicester was mentioned upthread. Yes, ridiculous restrictions and an infringement on liberties of people living there, especially those, with no outside space. It is awful and very wrong that city dwellers could mix in restaurants but not in their own homes.

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 08:48

" Some restrictions, such as those mentioned as having been imposed in places like France would not be imposed here. Permissions print outs (completed by the individual) and curfews as would be seen as infringements on civil liberties too far. "

I wonder - have there been any opinion polls on that? Most seem to show that the majority at any particular time want more corona restrictions. I agree that a year ago we would have assumed permission print outs would be unacceptable but we assumed many things that turned out not to be true! (Not advocating them, btw.) What happened if you didn't have a printer at home in France at the beginning of March 2020 - presumably there was a bit of a run on them! My impression is that younger generations are less likely to have printers but rely on phone tickets etc.

110APiccadilly · 04/03/2021 08:51

"Am not sure if we, as a whole, just don't know what 2 metres looks like,"

Quite a lot of people do actually still find it easier to think in feet. Why the government didn't say "2m, or 6ft 6in" I can't understand. I'd find that easier to visualise, and I'm only in my 30s.

grenadines · 04/03/2021 08:51

@Wiredforsound

We let households mix at Christmas. That unleashed a catastrophe of epic proportions which led to the closing of schools and businesses for a further three months and a increase in deaths taking us to well over 100,000. If there’s a choice between hugging my parents and risking passing on COVID or waiting a view more months and keeping them safe, keeping them safe wins every time.
in tier 4 households were not allowed to mix at Christmas. The increase in cases started before Christmas with uncontrolled spread in schools and the government not letting affected councils shut schools
MyCatLovesFish · 04/03/2021 08:52

I think the OP is right to raise the issue - once you start telling people how to live their lives in their own homes this must be a point of concern (although we already d it re noise and public health issues for example), but you also have take into account density of population and what the overall package of measures looks like.

We have chosen to send children back to school next week and we know that will push rates up at a time when they are really not low enough for this so rates will start to climb again. We therefore have got keep constraints in the rest of the population because family numbers will start to rise again.

Lockdownbear · 04/03/2021 08:57

I suppose also it's just so completely contrary to the way we have always treated social interaction and, possibly, what we are evolutionarily programmed to do. Maybe physical proximity (a 3 ft distance?) has some evolutionary advantage in terms of 'bonding'?

There have been studies on this in the past. People who live in crowded places, have and give other people less "personal space" than people who live in less crowded places.
Country people get agitated when city people don't give them enough space but and equally city people find it stand-offish when country people stand back further than they are used to.
Regardless if at that moment in time they are in an open park or a busy street. So the space people naturally stand apart is a cultural thing rather than an evolutionary thing.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 04/03/2021 08:57

OP, I agree with you that this has been a momentous decision by the UK Governments that should have had much more parliamentary scrutiny.

However, your analysis is disingenuous because many of the countries you mention (Spain, Italy, France, for a start) have had much tighter controls than the UK on leaving your own home at all, at times when their national infection rates have been high. You don't need to ban household mixing if no one is allowed to leave their house in the first place (except to shop for basic necessities).

Lockdownbear · 04/03/2021 08:59

I also think it would have been given more scrutiny if Parliament thought it was going to be 6 months plus as opposed to a couple of weeks.

LoveYourUsername · 04/03/2021 09:04

In Oz they closed the borders for 8 months. No one could travel anywhere. In Ireland there is a 5k limit on moving outside your home.

Your post is a waste of time.

The roadmap is laid out.

If you are trying to incite people to break the rules, shame on you @ByTheHarbour

lightand · 04/03/2021 09:05

@110APiccadilly I think it's very interesting that posters seem to be concentrating on the fact that there's one other country where this is also true, and not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual

I agree

lightand · 04/03/2021 09:07

op, excellent op

Could you look into this please? @MissLucyEyelesbarrow However, your analysis is disingenuous because many of the countries you mention (Spain, Italy, France, for a start) have had much tighter controls than the UK on leaving your own home at all, at times when their national infection rates have been high. You don't need to ban household mixing if no one is allowed to leave their house in the first place (except to shop for basic necessities)

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 09:07

"Country people get agitated when city people don't give them enough space but and equally city people find it stand-offish when country people stand back further than they are used to.
Regardless if at that moment in time they are in an open park or a busy street. So the space people naturally stand apart is a cultural thing rather than an evolutionary thing."

Very interesting lockdown bear! And yes I agree with the stand-offish thing - maybe one reason why people find it hard to keep to 6'6" is that it seems awkward to stand back, and reversing away feels as though you are saying to that person 'I think you are contaminated, don't want you near me' (though of course you might be saying 'I'm doing this in case I might contaminate you'). It is quite counter-intuitive to do this if you are trying to have a civil interaction!

Flippyferloppy · 04/03/2021 09:07

Erm, you've interpreted Belgium completely wrong. It's true that in theory DH and I can see different close contacts. BUT, we are only allowed 1 each. That means that because DH's son comes to our house and takes his mask off, we cannot mix with anyone else.
Also, in Brussels you cannot leave home without a mask.
Also, maximum gathering is 4.
This has been the case since October, with no let-up for Christmas and none forseen.

Rosa · 04/03/2021 09:08

Italy - Over Christmas we couldn't leave our municipal area not even to visit family. It is not advised to have people from other households in your home . It is LAW to wear masks outside when in the vicinity of anyone, it is enforced on public transport and in the streets . in lockdown 1 we couldn't go more than 250 m from our homes. In our tier system I am in yellow right now , I cannot go out of my region / county but this is likely to change as we are heading into Orange. My kids do online learning 50% of the time and the other 50% are in school. They then swap. Elementary and senior schools to 14 are in school , All our teachers are now being offered the vaccine. The grass is not greener on the other side OP.....

Flippyferloppy · 04/03/2021 09:08

oh, and I forgot the curfew!

Flippyferloppy · 04/03/2021 09:09

you can only shop alone and are not allowed more than 30 mins in a shop